Questionroland,
i have a 1999 dodge intrepid, 2.7 engine, engine was replaced at 122,000 and now has 143,000, that throws 1391, and 356 codes. i bought the car from a friend, knowing that it did not run. she had been driving down the road and it died just like you'd shut the key off. i had it checked and misdiagnosed, i believe, and was told the engine was no good. not knowing any better at the time, and based on that, i bought an engine from a 2006 sebring that had been rolled and only had 3000 miles on it and had it installed. the injectors, sensors, wiring harness, and plenum were used from the '99 car, as it would not fit in the chassis w/ the 2006 top end on it, (several fuel lines etc. were different also. essentially the 2006 long block was used and the manifolds, plenum, sensors, injectors, wiring harness was used frome the '99. i took it do a different shop, and the mechanic installed the engine, then found it would not start, and had to replace the ecm. i believe he was telling the story correctly, and not scamming me for more work. (i think the original problem was the ecm, not the engine itself as i was told.) the engine was completed, and new ecm from chrylser installed and i started to run the car. it started to throw 1391 and 356 codes, almost like clockwork, (about 2 miles driving and seems to be engine temperature related, (120 deg. or above), but then other times would not do it for a week. i have replaced the cam sensor once, and replaced the crank sensor twice, also the coil pack on #6 cyl, and the #6 injector, thinking the injector may be sticking and flooding the cyl, causing a misfire and rapid speed change in the engine, thus throwing the 2 different codes. all of this has made no difference. i initially took it to the dealer, and he said the new ecm was no good, we replacd it again, (bought and programmed from chrylser), and made no difference. i have played w/ it as i have mentioned, and took it back to the dealer again, and they suspected worn timing chain or broken chain tensioner, ... i told them that is virtually impossible w/ an engine that now has 24,000 miles on it, especially using synthetic oil and still changing at 3000 mi. then they kind of shook their head and had no real answers. (they had also suggested running new wires to the cam and crank sensors the first time i took it there but i opted not to do that, as again, it seems to be engine temperature related. it would seem odd that a wire would fail and almost the exact same temp. every time. i have noticed that when it starts to miss etc., if you stomp on the accelerator possibly several times getting it to a 3500 rpm or above, it will likely come out of the miss and have to further problems until the engine is shut off, cooled down, and then the scenario repeats itself, other times i have had to simply shut it off, restart, sometimes immediatly, sometimes wait several minutes before it will restart and not miss. i have noticed of late, letting off the gas completely, rather than slowly, may trigger the miss , but have not been able to verify that. (this may point to timing sensors, of course.) also i have noticed of late that the engine seems to crank longer and longer each morning before starting, but once it runs, it is fine, until it sets for several hours, then starts hard again, the first time. i think this may be an unrelated problem, (not sure what, though i would guess pressure regulator or weak fuel pump,) but thought i would include it in my information. i have not replaced the spark plug on the #6 cyl, and the dealer said he had checked the wires and they were fine, (but with the code inactive, it probably would.) i called a 2nd dealer to ask their thoughts before i took it to them and they said that somewhere about 99-2000 they changed ecm's from a phase 1 to phase 2 , i believe he said and he stated that they had seen this problem before and it was related to that. (essentially unfixable in that scenario, because changing the ecm to fit the engine wil likely be uncompatable w/ the rest of the vehicle... they agreed with my thought.) i would rule this out, as again it was essentially only the long block used from the new engine, all electronics and the fuel system was used from the original car. (iron is iron, it is the electronics that throws codes, it would seem to me.) i have looked at several questions on this site relating to similar problems and quite often sensors are mentioned w/ paper spacers, though i do not remember paper spacers on either the cam or crank sensors, but have used parts store sensors rather than ones from chrysler. also in looking at the schematics in a haynes repair manual, it shows the knock sensor tied into the ground side of both the cam and crank sensors. is it possible the knock sensor is shorting, or going open, etc., causing an improper ground signal, thus throwing the 1391, 356 codes. it seems these codes are thrown simultaneously, as i had the codes cleared recently, and after it missed and ck. engine light came on, i checked the codes w/ the ignition and both 1391 and 356 were present. also there are capacitors somewhere in teh coil circuits, (2 i believe,), is there a possibility one of these is the culprit? i could run new wires to the sensors or #6 coil or both, but though it appears the harness COULD be the problem, i am hesitant to do so as the knock sensor, and capacitors could be an issue. also i have seen in some answers to related questions that the alternator could cause this condition, though i have not checked that. i am a mechanic , working on heavy duty diesel truck engines which are also all computer controlled, so i understand shorts, grounds, sensor faults related to temps., etc but of course each system is somewhat different. there is a ton of information here to sift through, and my chronology of events may not be the best, i apologize, but hope you can put the scenario together and find a solution. it always throws the same two codes and seems to do so simulatneously, and at 100 deg. or above. any help would be beneficial. thank you
AnswerHi Doug,
PPS: I thought you would like to see another idea on your engine's problem:
"The problem with this vehicle is that the trigger wheel for the cam sensor on the 2006 engine has a different slot configuration than the one used on the 1999 engine. The PCM cannot interpret the signal from the cam sensor due to this difference. Replacing the cam gear on the left cylinder head with the gear from a 1999 engine should correct the concern."
I hope it will correct the situation.
Roland
Please 'rate' my answer, and where you see the question about a nomination of me to be 'vlunteer of the month' consider a 'yes' response. Thank you
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The intermittent loss of cam or crank sensor signal code, plus the symptom of stalling at a repeatable temp/then recovering surely raises the possibility of either sensor being in an early state of failure. My thought would be to pre-position pins in the sensor ground wire (43 at the pcm) and the cam signal wire (pin 33) and the crank signal wire (pin 32) and then as soon as it stalls check out the presence or absence of signal pulsation from the sensors by putting a voltmeter across each of the sensors and checking to see if you see a 5.0 to 0.3V pulse as you rotate the engine by hand with key in the 'run' position. That may reveal which, if either, is the cause of your problem. Test it out first when the engine is cold, then compare to what you find when it has just stalled. Neither spacer is 'papered' on the 2.7L, apparently.
You might try changing the capacitor on the 2-4-6 cylinder side of the engine head (it is in the same harness as the dark green/light green 12V wire to the coils).
The knock sensor shares the same ground wire as do the cam and crank sensors, but I can't see how its failure could cause the ground state not to be maintained on the wires from all three. It is basically a voltage source proportional to it vibrationing and the other wire signal out of it goes to pin 25. You could simply pull its plug to take it out of the picture and see how that impacts the start/cold/hot operation if at all.
Thanks for all the details and while I could get more into the details, why not begin with an assessment as described above. I will be interested to know your findings.
Roland
PS Please 'rate' my answer and where you see the question about a nomination for me to be "volunteer of them month" consider a 'yes' response. Thank you.
Roland
