QuestionQUESTION: To: Roland Finston:
I recd. email from Kevin Aug.4. He said my question was out of his area of expertise. My question was about a codes test, giving the numbers for my 1995 Chrysler Neon. I originally asked for Roland Finston to reply because on a search of his questions and answers before writing to allexperts, he aid in a reply a couple of years ago that he had a troubleshooting manual for 1995 Neons and offered to look up a code for the inquirer. Also, he replied to questions about codes last month and what they might mean. So it looks like Roland has some expertise about codes and maybe help me. I spent a few hours to get as much info as I can before going to the dealer. Can you please forward my question below to Roland Finston?I shortened my original
message (below) to only ask about my immediate problem.
My question to Roland:
Roland, I have 1995 Chrysler Neon. Last few days, "Check Engine" light on dashboard comes on and stays on. Engine seems a bit rough. I did code test by turning
ignition on/off/on/off/on.Check Engine flashed 3 times, paused, 2 times pause. The pause after 2 seemed to be a slight pause, then check engine flashed 7 times, then pause, then 5 pause, 5. But looked more like it was 32. Also, after I turn the ignition one notch off all lights go off except oil light. Have to turn key off completely for it to go off. I had oil change 6 weeks ago though that probably has nothing to do with my problem. Any idea what might be wrong?Thanks
Mary
ANSWER: Hi Mary,
You can repeat the readout as often as you like until you get it accurately and repeatedly, the same set of numbers. Let us assume you got a 3,2,5,5, but check that agian and let me know if otherwise. The codes are two digit, so this would indicate a 32 and a 55.
The 55 always happens, last, because it means "end of readout".
That leaves 32 as the only real code. That one says the exhaust gas recirculation valve is hanging up either ajar, or closed. Chances are it is stuck ajar as that is what would cause rough idle and hard starting. Because you didn't mention the engine I can't be exact so in general to find it you have to look at the exhaust manifold and find a small pipe that branches off that toward the air intake of the engine. Near the air intake you will find the valve body bolted into that pipe. It also has a round top with a rubber tube attached to it. In between the top and body is a flanged opening and inside the flange is a rod with a slot that goes around the rod. That is the valve stem and if you put the tip of a screwdriver in the slot you can move the stem back and forth. In one direction you will feel spring tension which is attempting to close the valve. It should close to a hard stop position and the valve stem should get there by spring action. If it seems inhibited in that closing process then spray some WE-40 on the stem where it enters the body of the valve and mover the stem some mort in order to free up the movement.
Then see if the engine is no longer rough. You can erase the fault codes to verify that the problem is solved by simply removing the (-)post clamp from the battery for a few minutes. Then do another code readout afterwards and you should only have a 12 and a 55 code. The 12 means that you have disconnected the battery (which you already know). Then drive for awhile and recheck for any new codes.
Roland
PS You can get back with results/questions by using the "thank and rate" tab where there is a section for comments. I'll get your note quickly and you won't have to wait for me to be "available". Mention which size engine is in the car.
The engine size in my 1995 Neon is 2.0 L 16V SHOC. -3 speed trans. air cond. The car is not hard to start. It just runs a bit rough, though not severe. I'm not sure where parts are under the hood which you mention,but I got the engine size from invoice when I bought car.I did entire codes test 8-10 times and always came up with same number of flashes, first 3 pause 2, then as I said a very slight pause after the "2" then 7 flashes, pause, then 5 and 5. I am sure about the 3 and 2, but after the 2 the very slight pause maybe wasn't a pause.I don't know what 7 flashes meant after the 2.I don't know anything about disconnecting batteries without being shown,and don't have proper tools, so I can't do things you suggest. I might be going to dealer tomorrow and if I get to talk to mechanic, I will know more now that you have suggested possibilities.I like to have idea what I am talking about. I hope its safe to drive car with Check engine light on? Thanks.
Hi Mary,
Because the codes appear in serial order the "7" actually may be a 34 (something to do with the cruise control) or a 43 (which says you have a 'misfire' on one of the cylinders). The 32 (egr valve) and the 43 (misfire) code both could produce the rough running particularly when accelerating, and I would fix the egr first. The egr valve is mounted to the rear end of the engine at its upper edge (on the cylinder head itself, all this is under the air intake filter box on which the "2.0L" appears). Maybe a friend can point it out to you. If so, the friend or you could try the WD-40 "fix" along with moving the stem back and forth with the tip of a screwdriver, and thus save you a service charge at the dealer if that is of interest. It is safe to drive the car with the light "on".
Roland
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Roland, At dealer yesterday.Asked service guy to ask mechanic re codes.Mechanic checked my car and asked me to come to garage.He said was code 27.I said I got 32+7. He said no. I am sure about first 3 flashes.Could first 3 be 1+2? He said 27 was #2 cylinder misfire but was ok yesterday-intermittent.He showed cylinder blinking on and off as it should.#2 did same a year ago-intermittent, but was OK again and check engine went off.No repair need.On visual exam under hood mech.showed me and serv.guy oil
leaking from cam sensor.Said should be fixed .I said OK. $320.00. He said take car home as Check light may or not come back if he keeps it for few days.I think it could happen anytime, so not good. Any chance cam sensor leak caused engine light?Thought you may be interested.No more follow ups here
ANSWER: Hi Mary,
Ah ha!, yes the "3" could very well be a 1-2, for code 12, which is very common because it says the battery source supply to the computer has been disconnected sometime in the past 50-100 ignition key cycles. If you don't recall disconnecting the battery, then it might mean a loose connection of one of the battery clamps, but I wouldn't be too concerned even if the clamps are ok. It should self- erase in time. (You also ironically get this code if you 'erase' the code memory by removing the - post clamp on the battery).
On the 27 code, that was misidentified by the mechanic: actually it is that the fuel injector for the #4 cylinder is not responding properly (electrical-wise) to the circuit that controls it. That could cause a miss or loss of some power. If it doesn't come back, so be it, if it does then consider whether to replace that one injector.
On the oil leak from the cam sensor, how much? Do you see a lot? or just damp? How many miles do you go before adding 1/2 quart of oil? If minimal loss, then I would not bother with that sort of repair. I don't believe that it is responsible for any of your past issues. The oil would not affect the magnetic field which is the principle by which the sensor operates. The cam shaft has an oil supply at the area just in front of the sensor, so a little leakage is not concerning to me. Try tightening the screws that attach the sensor to the engine at that point.
So that is how I see it. Again, use the "thank and rate" to get back to me with any residual questions.
If the check light comes on again, read the codes again.
Roland
Roland.Got new battery 8 mos.ago. Code site said codes cleared by 50 ignition cycles.I think I did more than that but not 100.You said "I wouldn't be concerned even if the battery clamps are ok.It should self- erase in time." -do you mean codes on dash should erase? Code 27 mentioned by mechanic seems to be correct. On nvoice from dealer.Mech. says "Code PO202 Cyl.#2 injector circuit problem" ODBII codes list P202 as "Injector Circuit Malf. Cyl 2".Mech must use ODB II codes reader.its for newer cars. On Neon site for 2 codes,says "Injector circuit prob.for code 27, which is the same as PO202 only doesn't say cyl.No. like new "P codes. So first 3 numbers could be "1" p, 2 p=12, another 2,then very short p, then 7=27.Some sites say long pauses separate 2 number parts of codes but other pauses shorter which was why I wasnt sure about pause after 2 in 27.But mech. said it could be cyl.prob., wiring or computer, so may not be injector. I found dealer inv. from year ago when I had same prob. (diff.mechanic).He said same as now (prob.in #2 cylinder.Also when CAA came to start car before I went to dealer,his code reader also said cyl. #2 prob.All agree cyl# prob. but can't tell exact prob.You said mech. misdiag. prob. What two code do you think? Prob. is not fixed and could come back.I could see oil leak on cam sensor.It was about 5" wide and 3" high.It was damp,looked recent.I get oil changed at dealer every 3-6 mos. Last time got oil change at different place, 6 wks ago.I only drive car 2-3 times a week,maybe more,mostly in city.You said you wouldn't bother to get cam sensor replaced.It was $320.00 so expense, but I don't want oil leaks.I want car to last a bit longer and look around at car prices.I had to shorten many words here to fit.
Hi Mary,
Thanks for the reply and nomination. I agree that the 0202 is about cylinder #2; the 27 code is less specific than I thought, so focus on #2 cylinder if at all. But the code is specific to the injector, not to mechanical aspects of the cylinder. The computer is saying that it doesn't like the way the injector circuit is behaving electically. It could either be the injector itself or the wire that is servicing it from the computer. It is up to you to decide if you want to pursue this...to me it would depend upon whether you notice a loss of power, or mileage, or you can't get it re-registered if the light is on, etc. You would need to weight the pluses of repair against the minus of the costs of repair.
On the oil leak, again, I would assess the rate of loss. There will be small leaks with aging engines which are not hazardous. So see what the rate of loss is and decide if you can keep up with it by cheching the dipstick, conveniently. The leak itself is not worth $320 unless it is a real gusher or the oil is dripping heavily on the exhaust manifold/pipe and could cause a fire.
Roland
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Roland, mech.said prob. could be injector or wire from the computer just as you say above. It could also be computer. Thats what mech last year said when I had same problem, except last year Check engine light came on,but went off for day or so, then back on again. I don't remembr much loss of power or rough running at that time, but did fail to start one day. Thats when I took it to dealer. At that time, mech. checked injector and wiring and could not find problem, so said only thing left that it could be was computer. He ordered re-cond. computer which would cost $450.00 but after day or so check engine light went off and stayed off so I never got computer. This time check engine light stayed on, but its same problem that started a year
ago. By the time I got to dealer this time, the problem corrected itself. Mech. cleared codes so engine light is off. I will just leave it for now. Would can of fuel injector cleaner help? As to cam sensor oil leak, I said to
you in my last message,that I got cam sensor replaced.Maybe
you missed that part of my message. I wasn't sure what to do.Its done now, so too late.Thanks.
AnswerHi Mary,
Thanks for the report. All sounds well... I would not believe injector cleaner will have any effect on the injector issue. It is, if true, a matter of the electical behavior of it, not the hydraulic. I would not change anything at this time if you have no problem with driveability or with annual inspections (if you have that issue at all in Canada). The injector would be the least expensive thing to change for that code rather than the computer. The wire between the computer and the injector should either pass or fail by simple test. It is a simple circuit so nothing hi-tech is involved with the code 27.
Roland
