QuestionQUESTION: Hi from Norway!
I'm experiencing startingproblems with my still very nice minivan. All el. connections, battery, computerconn., fuses and relays are checked for moist (humid climate), but seems all surprisingly fine. It's been well serviced over apx. 120 000 miles, and runs real smooth - when running...
The car sometimes starts - and sometimes not. I've checked for (fresh) codes, and they tell me (12), 31 and 42. The last one I suspected, because it seems to help tapping/pulling the fuse/relaybox near the battery while cranking. This leads me to think there might be a bad wire underneath - or not... I tried to exchange relays (they are all the same) with no luck. I've cleaned up the ECM-contacts and even given it an extra groundcable to the chassis. It runs 100% , while running, but has also shut down once while driving. The problem has been over a period of 500 miles/1 month. After disconnecting battery and restarting just now (had to tap) and driving a short while it shows no other codes than 12
The fuelpump is recently changed experiencing much of the same problem; It died and it wouldn't start when cranking. Tapping the underside of the (plastic - so no rust) fueltank made it run for a couple of minutes. A new pump took care of that. It ran nicely for about 3 months before this new problem (Yihaa) occoured.
I can probably fix this myself, IF i find the core of the problem. A quest ? Hope not. If this is a known "bad-wire"-problem, would it be possible to get the correct pin-number into the ECM from the ASD-relay to check if this is the case? If most lightly the ECM, could someone direct me to a retailer of a new one (checked used ?).
I will tell you that i would probably be charged around 1200 USD. for a new one here. AND the retailprice for the cheapest 2008 model is 129.000 USD. A brand new AWD would probably set me back 200.000 USD. This is NOT a joke.
Thanx!
Atle
ANSWER: Hi Atle,
I have a '95 shop manual so that is fortuitous. The ASD relay should have power all the time on the red/white wire via fuse 11 (check to see that the fuse isn't subtly cracked). And that current, when the relay closes passes along the dark green/red to the injectors and the field coil of the alternator, and the spark coil. The power for the relay coil (dark blue/white) comes from fuse 16 (under the dash) which in turn gets its power from the ignition switch. The ECM controls the relay by grounding the coil by the dark blue/yellow at pin 51 of its 60-way plug, when it 'sees' pulsing from the crank and cam sensors or for a second when you first turn the key to run.
Let me know if this is of any help.
Roland
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: First of all; Thank you for the quick and presise response. It made me able to establish a few things.
The red/white wire to the ASD-relay has constant current yes. So I gather fuse 11 must be ok, though there are no such fusenumber corresponding neither in the fusebox with the ASD-relay nor under the dash. (11 there is stop, i think). But when I "connect" red/white with green/red (orange by me) on the ASD-relay (underneath), using the soundfunction on my multimeter, there clearly is connection for 1-2 seconds in run-position or while going directly to cranking it from off-position. You can hear the relay clicking in and out. When measuring on one of the injectors, this is the same case. Something clearly makes the ASD-relay re-open after engaging - resulting in no current to the injectors. I have no clue as of where to messure the relay coil for current (not sure what/where you mean), but fuse 16 under the dash is ok.
Clearly the ASD-relay is supposed to remain engaged while running. This raises the next question; why doesn't it ? I have messured currentflow in all the fuses using the soundfunction in the multimeter. All exept foglights found ok. I don't know if it is of any relevance, but I lost (gradually) pulscurrent for the starter last fall. The solution was to install a seperate wire from the ignition directly to the starter. Do you think this was wrong in any way ?
I hope I can have this issue resolved....without a new one occouring. ;-) I try to keep it in good shape, polish it, and I even had it sandblasted and fully retectylized last fall.The tranny was rebuilt in 2005, but the car sat indoors for two years before I bought it last summer.
Thanks again for your knowledge and help!
Atle
ANSWER: Hi again Atle,
Thanks for the kind comments.
Fuse 11 I should have specified is the 11 in the power distribution box in the engine compartment. (16 I spoke of is under the dash).
So just to be sure, look at 11.
The relay will close (12V is then applied to the dark green/"red") for one second, and then it drops out until you start cranking and then the relay will close again and if the engine catches and runs it will remain closed. It opens only if the engine stops rotating or of course if you turn off the key. The ASD is there to disconnect the spark/injector/fuel pump in the case of an accident.
If it doesn't remain engaged then either the crank or cam sensor is getting flaky, and when finally fail will give you a code 11 or 54 respectively, or the ASD is "weak", or the ECM is not reliably grounding the other end of its coil via pin 51, or the 12V to the coil from the ignition switch is cutting out for no good reason. Those are the possibilities for the ASD opening.
I am not clear as to whether the engine is "catching" and then dying, or it won't "catch" at all.
So let me know.
Roland
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: You have really earned the comments!
Thank you once again Mr. Finston.
A short summary;
1. Fuse 11 is checked. OK.
2. Following your description I then understand how the ASD-relay is intended to work. Good sercurityprecaution.
3. The problem is that the relay doesn't re-engage when turning the ignitionkey and cranking. After the 1-2 secound engagement in run-position there is no, or very little contact (no or slight sparking sound from my multimeter while cranking).
4. There are three scenarioes when cranking; 1. It starts - and it will run as usual. 2. Nothing happens while cranking(not catching at all). 3. It is "nearly there" while cranking.(almost catching with no trottle - "dead" with trottle).
5. Just so that I'm 100 % sure : "the power distribution box in the engine compartment." Is this the box I've mentioned earlier that sits on the top left engine compartmentside, "behind" the battery? The inside text on this fusebox's lit doesn't specify any numbers on the fuses, they are only marked by name. And the ASD-relay sits in here as well. The correct box ?
So, put into my quest for ignition this means I should ;
A: Check my crankpositioningsensor (where/how?)
B: Check my campositionsensor (where/how?)
C: Check 12V. connection between the coil and the ignition switch.
D: You wrote: " The ECM controls the relay by grounding the coil by the dark blue/yellow at pin 51 of its 60-way plug" meaning the blue/yellow on the ASD-relay or coil ? And then check for ground there ?
??
I hope to get to borrow a Haynes in a day or two. This will show me alot more. (A bit slow? ;-) Now it is almost 10 PM here, so I will try some more tomorrow. Thanks again.
Atle Davidsen
AnswerYes, the box in the engine compartment is the power distribution center. I am sorry to have misread the fuse in question: it would be labelled 'eng' (15 amp).
I would verify first that when you are cranking that you indeed have 12V on the dark blue/white pin of the ASD. If you like you can pull the ASD relay and measure on the in-board pin of the socket which is attached to the dark blue/white. If you have a reliable 12v then the ignition switch is OK because that voltage comes thru the ignition switch from fuse 16. You said something about a problem with the starter but I wasn't sure what you meant about re-wiring the circuit for that. Maybe the ignition switch?
The blue/yellow wire is connected between pin 51 of the ecm and to the out-board pin of the ASD socket. Thus when the 12V is applied to the in-board pin and the outboard pin is grounded, the coil is energized which closes the switch contacts.
You can test the sensors, but without an 11 or a 54 code I don't believe they will be found wanting. I'll tell you how if these other checks work.
In the meantime do the tests and check for codes. If you pull the ASD relay and then crank the starter you will likely cause a 42 code. BUT now I do recall you said you were getting a 42 Code! That means either that the ASD is no good (but you substituted another relay for it, correct? It should be a relay that is not also need to run the engine by the way) OR the two wires we are focussing on are the problem, or the ignition switch itself is flaky. I don't know which.
You could simply by-pass the ASD by jumping a wire between the red/white and the dark green/orange wires (or by pulling the ASD and jump between the front pin and the rear pin of the socket which will cause the fuel pump to run, the spark coil and the injectors to get power) and then try to start it. If it starts then, your problem is the ASD circuitry. If not, then I would focus on the sensors. But don't leave this jumper in place as it will run down the battery and of course the fail-safe function of the ASD is defeated by such a jumper.
So look some more...
Roland
