Question
Hello Roland,
I decided to take apart the back casing on the computer "IDE" Cable to
get a better look at the color of the wires... come to find out the dark blue and yellow tracer wire is not pin 51 but is rather pin 58 and this wire shows no short in it. I tested the + and - of the coil it reads 1.49 and the tower to shell part reads 8.6 thousand ohms. I looked at the rotor and found out that it is not turning at all and I test the rotor and distributor cap for shorts they tested out ok no shorts. Hope this narrows things down a little bit.
Thanks
Thomas Carlson
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Followup To
Question -
Hello Roland :
So far things are going as predicted I found that the green and black wire from asd relay to the positive side of the coil has no shorts in it I also tried the jumper test from the positive side of the coil to the positive side of the battery it ran the fuel pump but still no fire to ignition I tried to test for the number 51 pin to the asd relay but was not sure which wire to test so I just counted from top left down until I reached 51 which in three rows of ten would have been the first pin on the bottom right hand column of the last set of ten I tested this pin for voltage... to prevent damage to the meter then did a standard resistance test with no zero showing so either I tested the wrong pin or it would seem that there is no connection at this point to the asd relay darkblue and yellow tracer wire... if this is the correct pin? Do you know if this is the correct pin 51 or could you be more specific as to which pin is 51? for example if I pull the 60 pin "IDE Cable" out of the computer then bent it straight up which pin is it?
Thanks
Thomas Carlson
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Followup To
Question -
Hello Roland:
Thank You for the fast response... I found out some things going on inside of the engine compartment come to find out the "asd" relay that you were talking about is not the most forward relay in the vehicle but is the second most forward relay all the others have a silver Grey metal casing and this one that I believe that you were talking about has a black plastic housing casing. What I found is that there is a red solid wire with no trace a dark blue wire with white tracer ,a green wire with black tracer and a dark blue wire with yellow tracer this must be the relay that you are talking about I am sure of it. Ok the multimeter test are as follows.
solid red/off='s Hot 12vdc
/on ='s Hot 12vdc
/start='s Hot 12vdc
Dark Blue/white tracer
Off is cold
on/Hot
start/Hot 12vdc
Dark Green/Black Tracer...
off/cold
run/cold
start/cold
Cold at + side of coil to this wire in run and cranking position and or in a resistance/"continuity" test it also shows no connection.
Blue and yellow wire
no ground
in run or cranking position.
these test have been done with the relay unplugged... while connecting a multimeter directly into the relay socket.
I am not sure what you mean about verifying the condition of the Dark blue and yellow wire at the diagnostic connector #1) do I just plug the multimeter in the diagnostic socket to this wire then test for a short from the relay socket to the test socket of the same color wire? I found out after installing a new computer I found another code from before where now I get a 45 added on to the other codes that read 12,22,45,55 I still have your response from the other codes but am wondering about this new code 45, #2 ? The exact manufacture date is 6/88 so from what I know your 89 manual should be the one we need definitely.
according to the parts store that it only has one spark control module and they said that it is in the distributor but I think there must be some confusion on there part as this sounds like the photo electric pickup not the control module. #3) when you say control module you mean the spark control computer correct? #4) the 60 way plug in you mean the cable that has 60 pins that connect to the side of the computer spark control module is this correct? #5) your last email you put numbers next to the colored wires are these awg numbers? if the computer is damaged then the codes may not be displayed properly I would think that this may be one thing we may have over looked as before the computer was replaced it was found that the previous owner had applied grease to the 60 way plug thus shorting out most of the pins therefore possibly damaging the wiring along with the computer not sure about if relays or anything else could have been damaged ? Hope this is not too confusing can you please answer these "five questions"
then possibly add your coments as what to do next?
Thanks
Thomas Carlson
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Followup To
Question -
Hello Roland thanks for answering my email in such a short notice no pun intended... I decided to check out the autoshutdown relay and what I came up with is I found that the most forward relay has four wires connected to it one thin wire and then three other wires that seem to follow the description of what you were talking about. I tried listening for the click but did not have anyone else there to turn the key at the time so yeah I heard a click but am not exactly sure from where it was coming from and yes I think that I also heard the fuel pump turn over like you said it would but wanting to know for sure I decided to get my multimeter out an test the relay socket ok there seems to be two wires with a red trace on it the one thin wire and then the other three wires with the same thickness I am assuming that its not the thin wire you are talking about but rather one of the three that are the same size... it is kind of hard to know as the colors on the wires seems to be some what faded
but as from what I can tell the red trace wire that you were talking about testing seems to check out but when I check the dark blue wire there is no voltage on it at all... in the run position "from run position you mean on but not in the Cranking the engine over position from the Ignition is this correct?" from this is this enough information for another recommendation as the coil as I said before is not getting any voltage to it at all. I have just recently installed a new spark control computer is this the control module that you were talking about?
Followup To
Question -
Hello Roland:
I have a 1988 Chrysler Newyorker Landau vin number 1c3bu6635jd237180 model cv66 that I have been trying to get running... It has absolutely no spark coming from the coil what so ever this occurred after a coolant leak possibly saturated some of the ignition wiring inside of the vehicles engine compartment. I previously did a jumper to lamp test to see if there was 12 volts getting to the coil but it showed none then I thought it must be the ignition control computer after I found the computers cable was smeared with "dielectric" type grease this I think possible shorted out all the pins to the computer so I thought I would replace the computer and clean off the grease then there should be a spark I even replaced the coil,although previously I replaced the coil and may have accidentally put the spark control condenser on the wrong side of the plus and minus markings on the coil... I put a jumper inside of the main hot output of the coil and can hold it in my hand and can tell you this may not be the safest way to test it although there is absolutely no spark coming through the coil... then I started to give up until I seen some of the recent articles that you have posted on the matter and thought I would give you a try to see if maybe you could suggest anything... the codes that I have been getting were 12, 24,and 55 I understand what the 12 and the 55 are but am not sure about the 24 could this possibly be some thing to do with the distributors photo electric diode sensor please reply...
Sincerely
Thomas
Answer -
Hi Thomas,
The 24 code says there is something wrong with the throttle positon sensor, but that would have nothing to do with a 'no spark' situation, rather it would possibly cause a fuel mixture or a hesitation in accelerating but it wouldn't prevent a spark.
The way to test for spark is to remove the center wire from the distributor cap and hold its tip 1/4" from the cylinder head while a helper cranks the engine. Absent a spark, then do the measurement for voltage at the + post of the spark coil (dark green/black wire) to see if you get 12v for a full five seconds of cranking measured between the post and ground (any shiney metal surface or the - post of the battery) or not (you need a neon glow light or a meter to measure the voltage). If you don't get 12v for 5 seconds, and you are not getting a 11 or a 54 code when you do a code readout (those are the codes that say there is something wrong with the photodiodes), then it is either the autoshutdown relay or the engine controller that is bad. The autoshutdown relay should should click when you first turn the key to the 'run' (not the start) position and you should hear the fuel pump run for about a second. If not, then you need to make sure that voltage is getting to the autoshutdown relay to operate it and to provide power to its switch. The autoshutdown relay is the most forward one on the three on the left side inner fender. Remove the relay and test for voltage at the plug. The plug pin with a red trace wire whould have 12v on it even when the car is shutdown. The plug pin with dark blue wire should have 12v when the ignition swtich is in the run position. The other two pins should be 0v. If you can't tell which pin is connected to which wire, then just verify that one pin has 12v when shutdown, and a second pin gets 12v when you turn the ignition to run. If the voltages to the plug check out, and you still don't have 12v to the + post of the coil when cranking, and you don't have a code 11 of 54, then that usually means the engine controller is bad. It could be a wiring fault at the 60 way plug in to the engine controller, but that requires an ohmmeter to check the continuity of the wires.
Let me know what you learn from all these tests.
Roland
Answer -
Hi Thomas,
If you hear the fuel pump run momentarily when you switch to run, then at least there should be also voltage to the relay to make it click when you crank it. The wires are as follows:
red trace 16 should be hot all the time (comes from battery)
dark blue 14 should be hot in run and start (comes from ignition switch)
dark green/black 14 should be hot when relay activates (comes from closing the relay contacts "the click" and should thus be hot at + post of coil as the result whenever you are cranking, and in run, and for 1 second when you first turn it to run position)
dark blue/yellow 18 should be grounded when you are in run or crank which is what activates the relay, and that grounding is done by pin 51 of the controller. You can verify its condition at the diagnostic connector behind the battery where you will find it in one of the cavities of that 6-pin test connector.
The lower the gauge number the fatter is the wire.
The run position is as you understand it. On the controller, I assume you have the single module controller with a single 60-way plug. If not, I may be a little in the dark as I only have the '87 and '89 manuals, and the '87 doesn't use the 3.0L engine in any of the cars. So I'm using the '89 as if it applies to your '88, which I think is a reasonable assumption, though you might have a set up where the engine controller is split into two parts one in the cabin and one in the engine copartment but I thought that 'died' in '87 1/2.
So that pretty much describes the ASD relay, its voltage expectations are wirings.
I hope this is of help. Use your multimeter to check out the voltage situations.
Roland
Answer -
Hi Thomas,
Thanks for the detailed report, it helps.
The J in the 10th place of the VIN means that it is an '88. I have the '87 which didn't have the 3.0L and the '89 manual which did, so using the '89 manual is the best we can do. I agree that the relay you found is the ASD relay, but I guess there is one more relay forward of it in your car. The wire colors are close enough to be in agreement.
The solid red and blue/white wires are behaving as they should. The dark green/black wire is not behaving: it should have 12V on it when you are cranking, and for 1-2 seconds when you first turn the ignition switch to run. By no continuity do you mean that there is no connection (infinite resistance) when you connect the meter leads to each end of the wire (one at the coil + post and one at the socket of the relay)? If so, then that wire is open, e.g. no longer patent, e.g. must be replaced. If it shows 0 ohms resistance then it is o.k. This is critical to be clarified/resolved.
By testing the dark blue/yellow wire at the diagnostic connector I meant you can determine what is going on with that wire at that diagnostic connector as well as at the relay socket but I suggested you test at that place because the location at the socket is not so accessible once you have the relay plugged into the socket. The fact that it reads infinite resistance to ground when run or cranking means that the spark control computer (engine controller is another name) is either not doing its job OR the photooptic sensor in the distributor is not doing its job Or the wire is open. The only problem with telling which it is is that if it were the sensor you should get an 11 or a 54 code, which you don't get. Is it possible the 45 is actually a 54? The 45 is not a valid code for this engine, it is only relevant to a turbo engine. So I have no other theory for why you would get a code 45 from a controller that was meant for the non-turbo engine that you are working with. Maybe it is just a false code that is routine for this controller.
The 22 means the coolant temp sensor is not responding properly to the warm up of the engine, which needs to be addressed once we get the engine to start. Is the coolant sensor plugged in? It is located next to the thermostat housing on the top of the engine.
The 12 and 55 code are not of importance unless for some reason you haven't actually disconnected the battery recently (which is what the code 12 means).
You have to get the darkblue/yellow wire to ground when you are cranking and running, otherwise the ASD relay won't close and you won't get spark or fuel pump operation. Why don't you do this: jump 12V from the battery +post to the spark coil +post and then see if the engine will start up and run. If it does, then it means that the sensor is o.k. but that the darkblue/yellow wire is not being grounded (which means the connection from the relay to pin 51 of the controller is open or that the controller is no good) OR that the ASD relay is bad, if the wire is indeed being grounded by the controller. You have to resolve that question if indeed you can get the car to run with the jumper to the coil. DON'T leave the jumper in place when the engine is not being started or running, because it will run the fuel pump as long as you have it connected, and that will wear out the fuel pump and possibly the coil too.
I wouldn't agree that grease will short out the controller, if the grease was silicon grease which has a very high resistance to conducting electricity and is routinely used to protect connections from water vapor. If it is a tranlucent white grease that was used, then that is silicone grease.
Yes the awg numbers are what I listed, the lower the number the fatter the wire.
Yes we agree on the terminology about sensor, controller, computer, etc.
Let me know what happens next.
Roland
Answer -
HI Thomas,
With the pins facing you and the short side tab up/long side tab down, the 51 pin is as you described it (counting left to right, upper row as 1-20). So re-verify that connection of the dark blue yellow to the ASD relay.
Have you checked the resistances of the primary and scondary of the spark coil? Should be 1.35-1.55 ohms (+ to - post) and 15,000 to 19,000 ohms (tower connector to shell). Have you checked the rotor to have continuity from the center point to the tip? Have you checked that the rotor is turning when you crank the engine?
I would suggest that you do all your starting attempts with the + post of the coil jumpered so you know there is power to it and the fuel pump regardless of the ASD situation (but remembering to remove it when you stop trying, to prevent fuel pump running on).
If all check out then you have the question of the photooptic unit in the distributor as the culprit or the engine controller itself. Absent an 11 or a 54 code the photooptic is supposedly o.k. So then you have to consider whether the controller is bad.
Roland
AnswerHi thomas,
It is good that you took apart the cable to find out the wire pin number. Evidentally that was the first year of the 3.0L Mitsubishi engine and the wire was moved to pin 51 in the '89 model which as I told you is the wiring diagram that I have to work with.
The secondary reading on the coil appears low, which if correct would produce a spark with about half the voltage it should have. But that is not the main problem.
But the big discrovery is that the rotor doesn't turn when you crank the engine. That means possibly that the timing belt is not turning the front cam shaft gear, e.g. the timing belt is either off or broken. I can't recall the history of this problem but didn't you begin by telling me a friend had helped replace the timing belt? If that is the case something is wrong with that job, so I would suggest you remove the timing belt cover on the front cylinder bank and see if the belt is present and that the cam shaft gear is turning when you crank it if it is present. It if is and still the rotor doesn't turn, then either the distributor is not inserted all the way down so its end gear is not meshed with the cam shaft, the cam shaft is broken, or the distributor shaft is broken.
In any case we have made great progress as to why no spark! If the distributor shaft isn't turning then you won't get any spark signal.
Let me know what you find.
Roland
