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Hi, i own a 1994 Le Baron, i have had it for a week, and it has ran fine with no problems, it has 179,000 mile, and i don't know the history of the car, it has about 8-12 reports with carfax and other auto history sites.
Today the car will not start. It seems to have full power everything works, the engine turns over, but does not seem to be getting fuel.
I think it might be a bad fuel pump, loose connetion, clogged fuel line, etc.
What do you think could be the most likly problem?
Also the car does not leak anything, and it was burning some oil, but i added no smoke and that has stopped it.
Answer -
Hi Dan
It is always good to begin a no start situation by checking for spark. Just pull a plug wire off (grasp the insulator and twist, don't pull on the wire). Then insert a spare plug in the plug wire socket and ground the shell of the plug while a helper tries the starter for 5 seconds. (If you don't have a spare spark plug just take a plastic handled phillips head screwdriver and insert it in the plug soket instead, and then hold the insulated handle of the screwdriver so that the metal shaft is 1/4" from the cylinder head while a helper cranks for 5 seconds. See for how long you get a spark to jump from the shaft to ground.) If you get spark for a full 5 seconds then you do need to check the fuel system. If not, then does the spark last for 1-2 seconds, or is there no spark at all? If for just 1-2 seconds then you need to readout the computer for fault codes:
The most useful thing to do would be to try to get the fault codes that are likely stored in the engine controller memory to readout. Try using the ignition key: turn it "on-off-on-off-on" and leave it "on" (doing this quickly, no longer than 5 seconds). Then watch the 'check engine' light to begin flashing, then pause, flashing, pause, etc. Count the number of flashes before each pause and keep track of the numbers. Repeat the readout and verify the counts are correct. Then group them in pairs in the order that they came out, thus forming two digit numbers. You may notice that the pause is shorter between the digits of a given number, and longer between the numbers themselves. Then send me a 'follow-up' question telling me the results of your readout. By the way, 55 will be the last number (two groups of 5 flashes each) and that is the code for "end of readout".
If you get no spark at all then we need to check the ASD relay as possibly bad.
So write back with the results of your testing.
Roland
Hi, and thanks for the help Roland.
I ended up taking the car to a garage last night. I called this morning and i asked if they can just look at the car and tell me whats wrong with it, and not to fix anything, i also told them what i think might be wrong with it. They said it will be a day before they even look at it. Then about a half an hour later i get a call from on of the techs, saying he gave it a diagnostic. He said it needs a fuel pump, bracket assembly, fuel filter, and lock ring.
He checked the pump pressure, power and ground to fuel pump, a diagnosis of the ignition system and condition of plugs, wires, cap and rotor.
This is what he claimed was wrong with the car, and the total would be $560.00, he said the pump alone would cost $200.00, i said what if i bring in my own pump, and he said they can't do that here. I said i really don't want to get all this fixed, the car is not worth it. He said he can't do anything to it now anyways, until he orders parts on monday, he said to think about it.
So i went down there this evening, to check on the fuses and relay switch, which i had forgotten about.
I brought my spare car, and the first thing i do is start the car, and it starts right up. I even started it up several times after that. I even heard the fuel pump power up, which didn't yesterday, i think i forgot to mention that, also the car is a 93 not a 94, sorry about that.
So maybe it was some condinsation in the distribter?
I didn't have a good feeling about what i was being told in the first place now this may confirm that.
This late in the day there is only a kid working there, so tell him what happened and i ask for my keys, he gives my a statement for labor and diagnosis for $70.00, i then ask for a copy of, or even to see the diagnostic print out, but he cannot provide that for me, so i just leave a tell him i'll call in the morning.
I feel that i am being set up, the tech must have know that the car started, maybe he didn't even give the car a diagnostic? How should i approach this in the morning? Should i take the car somewhere else, don't say what could be wrong with it and get a diagnostic to prove what he thought was wrong?
I realize this is not what you are expecting, again sorry.
I checked the ignition codes and i only get 55, nothing more. Should i even bother with checking the spark right now?
Thanks for the help, and LMK what i should do next.
-Dan
Answer -
Hi Dan,
No there is no need to check for spark if the car will start up. The fact that you couldn't hear the fuel pump tick over for a second or so (which is what it should do when you turn the key to run without going the rest of the way to starter) yesterday probably means there was a poor connection at the pump or that the fuel pump relay or the ASD relay was flakey.
I doubt though that you will be able to get the car back from the shop without paying them something. There is not necessarily going to be a hard copy printout from the code reader, whatever kind was used, because it may or may not have a printout. So my inclination is to note that they called back in 1/2 hour, and wouldn't that suggest maybe a lesser charge than $70, and see if you can get the charge reduced; but in the end it is going to have to resolved between you and the shop as far as that goes. I wouldn't spend any more effort proving they were inept by going elsewhere, if they were, that will just lead to more cost and conflict in all likelihood.
What you might want to do is use the car very locally for a while and let it prove itself to you as to reliability and when and if it dies and refuses to start again then do the spark test and code readout. Also having a simple volt-ohm meter in the vicinity would be good, or even just a neon 12v glow light to test for voltage and a few tools on board would be good, and a spare spark plug (to do the spark test a little more easily) would be helpful.
I hear you about not wanting to invest money (labor) and there is no reason why that has to happen. Just stay in touch and I can work you through a 'no start' in all likelihood.
I would suggest too that instead of calling that you go to the shop first thing and work it out in person. Hopefully the car will start so you can drive it out of there and be free to use your options. That way they will not have a chance to make it undriveable if that is their inclination.
Roland
P.S. The question about condensation in the distributor is not so relevant with the solid state sensor that is now used therein. Though it is possible that the sensor is going bad which would produce a stall, but also should produce a code 11 or a code 54. By the way, I assume that you have the 3.L v-6 with the electronic transaxle, correct?
Hello again
I did i mention that i have the car? I meant to say i took my spare keys, then when the car started up, i told the kid working, that the cars runs, there is nothing wrong with it, it doesn't need these repairs, and that i want my other key, which he gave me along with a statement, which has the $70 labor fee.
I'm sure the tech will call tomorrow upset that i took the car. What would be the best thing i can say, to let him know that he tried to scam me, and i know it, and his diagnosis was wrong, the car does not need the repairs that he suggests?
I have been driving to car around tonight and so far so good, although i don't hear the fuel pump everytime, but it starts right up. I do feel nervious about going somewhere, and turning the car off, only to have the pump not start, or power up.
Can you go into a little more detail about the volt metor, neon light, and checking for spark. I really haven't doen this before.
And as for the relay, should i just replace that since i already have the part, it was only $10.00, or is there a way to see if the one in the car is going bad? Or even clean it up? BTW i guess its in the master fuse box, where would that be at, i'am not sure where to look in a Chrysler.
You think i should drop the tank and tighten the connection to the fuel pump, and at the other end? Maybe just replace it? Or am i not at that point yet?
Oh and it is the 3.0 v6, not sure about the electronic transaxle, i don't have a manual for the car, i have just about every other insert from the car dating back to 93, but no manual. It does sound like an electronic transaxle when i step on the gas.
Again thanks for the help
-Dan
Answer -
Hi Dan,
I would just say that because the car seems to have an intermittant no start you want to wait until it refuses to start and you have the opportunity to do some self-testing at that time to really nail down why it isn't starting. And then ask how much time he spent on the car and the hourly rate and see if that matches with the time frame that you believe is correct and whether there is an hourly rate posted or stated to you. Then bargain from there. I guess unless the keys that he is holding are worth $70 and he insists on $70 that you can refuse to pay and see what he can do about it. Ideally you can reach a mutually satisfactory agreement where you will pay him something similar to the value of the keys and he will get from you something similar to the amount of time honestly spent on the analysis.
The spark test just involves removing a spark plug wire via the insulated rubber cap on the top of one of the plugs (as I said don't pull on the wire but rather twist off the rubber cap that is actually clinging to the spark plug). If you have a new spark plug that is the same as the one called for that engine (RN11YC4 or BPR5ES11) just put it in the rubber cap and then hold the threaded outer shell of the plug against a clean metal surface on the engine while a helper tries to start it. Just watch for a spark to jump the gap.
The voltmeter will be useful to tell you at each point of interest whether or not you have 12V between that point and any shiney metal surface on the engine or body which is where you would touch the other wire of the meter (or glow light). The glow light is just a neon tube that has two leads and does the same thing, only it costs a couple of dollars.
The fuel pump relay is in a thin rectangular box under the hood on the driver's side, third one from the outside end of the box. Try tapping on it if the fuel pump seems not to work; then try replacing it if that doesn't get the fuel pump to work. I can tell you about wires to check by color at a later time if necessary. The connections in question would be the dark green/black wire at the pump and at the relay (which if both have 12V on it should cause the tank to run, but note that it will only have that for about a second when you turn on the car to run but don't start it, so you will need a helper to operate the key; then during cranking the wire should show 12v again and stay until until you stop cranking or stay if the engine catches and runs); and the plain black wire on the pump which should be grounded (meaning 0 ohm resistance reading between it and any shiney metal part on the body (in fact that wire should go to a screw nearby that is at a body screw hole). Same with the pump itself, I would check the wires at the pump which you don't have to drop to get to them. Replacing the pump does involve at least lowering if not dropping the tank.
It the car sat for a while before you bought it, this problem may go away with "exercise".
Roland
Hi, and thanks again.
As for the box, do you mean the one next to the battery? Its the only one i see anyways, i could not get that open. I took a pic of it, just to be sure, you can find it at the link below. Also i have a few other pics of relays on the drivers side and, far on the other side, mounted on the side of the car.
http://ru486.homestead.com/files/box.jpg
http://ru486.homestead.com/files/2.jpg
http://ru486.homestead.com/files/3.jpg
Oh and the garage doesn't even have my keys, i got those yesterday from the kid working there. They did call today and leave me a messsage, telling me what they did, and that it was an hour of labor. So i will go down there this afternoon and see what i can do. I really don't have a good feeling about it. I'm sure they are going to say that the diagnostic showed this, and it doesn't lie, and the car needs these repairs.
BTW the fuel pump didn't start late last night, then i started to play around with the connections, the relay's and messed around with that box, and the car started right up. I think the car was sitting around for a while, atleast a year, because it needs an oil change next month.
-Dan
AnswerHi Dan,
Yes the long narrow box is the power distribution center that contains the fuel pump relay. It is the third relay from the right hand end when you view the open box from the side of the car where the relays are seen as in a row across the rear of the box.
So let me know what happened with the shop and whether you are having a continuing problem or not.
Roland
