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Followup To
Question - Hello Roland, I was able to put some time into this problem today. The end results were the same. I looked at the 60 way connection pins and they all looked fine. The pin #'s did not match what you gave me but nothing looked to be damaged or missing in any way. I checked the wires (what I could see of them) back to the distributor. I pulled the distributor out completly and inspected it.(I purchased the correct book.) After everything was put back together I put the battery back in and tried to start it. The battery was dead. This is odd because I purchased it only months ago and it has cranked great thoughout all of this so far. When I jumped it the engine started right up and idled good for 4 mins. then stop suddenly and would not restart. One thing I failed to mention before was the idle has been quite high for the last few weeks. The codes now read out 12,11,13,55. I did not get a chance to drive the car so maybe that is why 15 is not there? The MAP hose and wires are good. The only chain type parts store that can get me the Photo Optic Sensor wants $110.99 for it. Must have some kind of diamond in it for that price! I am just getting back to work and that is too much for the time being. Any other suggestions? I hope I'm not getting to be a pain. I appreiciate the time you have given so far! This is a great service you do. Thanx Duke----------------------
Followup To
Question - Hello again Roland , I've taken the day off Wed. to try and get this thing resolved. I would like to look at the connetion pins first if you could give me the assignments. My brother told me I should disconnect both battery connections before looking at the connection pins, and also look to see if any oil may have gotten on the connections or wires. He said that they are very sensitve to exposure to oil. I looked at the timing belt and it looked good. My brother said he replaced it about 25,000 miles ago. I'm sure learning alot! At lest some good is comming from this! Much thanks for your help! Duke
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Followup To
Question - Hello Roland, nice to hear from you! I thought the code sequence looked a little strange but thats how they came out. I can't work on it this weekend. I won't be home. I do have a Chilton manual. It is for the 4 cyl. if that will work. Thanks, I will get back to you on my progress. For now... Duke
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Followup To
Question - Thank you for your prompt answer. I hope I got the codes right. I checked them many times. They are 12 13 11 15 55. I will await your answer. Thank you very much Roland.
1988 New Yorker 6-cyl In the last month my New Yorker has quit on me in traffic a few times and it took a few trys to get it started again. It stopped running in my driveway one morning after only 30 sec. of warmup and would not restart. That evening I replced the fuel filter. Wouldn't start. I pulled the fuel line off the filter on the inlet side, had the Wife turn the key and no fuel came out. I replaced the fuel pump (Master M brand) and the pump strainer. It started up after only a few cranks, sputtered abit, then ran great for 'bout 5 min. It died abrubtly and would not start again. The pump would buzz for only a second and we got a little fuel out of the fuel line on the inlet side of the filter each time we turned the key. I replaced that pump with another like it and basicly the same thing happened. I replaced the Auto shut down relay. Same results. I went out the next day and it started right up, ran for a few min. and quit. Now the pump makes a quick noise when the key is turned but no fuel. I'm on seasonal unemployment right now and can't afford to put it in the shop. Is this something that can be discoverd from a computer hook up? This is my first time replacing a elec. pump but I didn't see where I could have screwed up on the pump install. I was very carful. I would sure appreciate some help on this. It is my only car right now. Thank you very much!
Answer -
Hello Duke,
Thanks for the detailed account of your problem. Fortunately there is an on-board fault detecting system that you can read out with your ignition switch and key. If something related to the electrical controls of the engine has been detected by the engine controller it records it as a two-igit fault code.
The most useful thing to do would be to try to get the fault codes that are likely stored in the engine controller memory to readout. Try using the ignition key: turn it "on-off-on-off-on" and leave it "on" (doing this quickly, no longer than 5 seconds). Then watch the 'check engine' light to begin flashing, then pause, flashing, pause, etc. Count the number of flashes before each pause and keep track of the numbers. Repeat the readout and verify the counts are correct. Then group them in pairs in the order that they came out, thus forming two digit numbers. You may notice that the pause is shorter between the digits of a given number, and longer between the numbers themselves. Then send me a 'follow-up' question telling me the results of your readout. By the way, 55 will be the last number (two groups of 5 flashes each) and that is the code for "end of readout".
The fault system doesn't monitor fuel pressure or delivery, but the failure of fuel that you are experiencing could be due to the safety shutdown system mediated by the autoshutdown relay, which you already replaced. But there are a number of electrical reasons for the ASD to be deactivated and one of those may be responsible for your problem. So get the read out and we can take it from there.
I can give you the interpretation of the fault codes and in addition there is a list at:
http://www.allpar.com./fix/codes.html
Let me know what you learn. The fuel pump will only operate for a couple of seconds when you turn on the ignition switch and it will only continue to operate if the engine is turning over or running. This is the safety feature to prevent fuel from being sprayed out following an event that diables the car (like a crash) that stops the engine but leaves the ignition switch "on".
Roland
Answer -
Hi Duke,
Those are relevant codes, alright. Just out of curiousity, did they come out in that order or not? They should come out in serial order: 11.12.13.15.55, if not then one of them may have been misread. But let us assume that they are correct.
The 11 means that the ignition reference signal from the distributor to the engine controller is not reaching the controller (wiring problem) or is not being generated in the distributor (photo optic sensor is faulty and needs replacement). If the wiring near the distributor doesn't appear to be damaged by heat, then it is likely the photo optic sensor unit that needs to be replaced. And whenever that signal is lost the controller de-energizes the autoshutdown relay and kills the fuel pump and the power to the spark coil. So that alone would explain the problem you have been having with the engine dying out.
The 12 means that sometime in the past 50-100 off-on cycles of the ignition switch the power to the controller has been disconnected (this happens if you disconnect the battery, or it could happen if one of the clamps at the battery is loose, or in the extreme that something is wrong with the wiring, unlikely)
The 13 means that signal from the Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor is not working as it should (i.e. it shows no change in reading when it should be changing in response to the throttle opening and closing when the engine is running for example). The MAP sensor is mounted on the alternator bracket and it has an electrical connector and a vacuum line to the intake manifold. Probably the vacuum line is cracked or disconnected, so look it over carefully and replace it if you find it faulty. Otherwise there maybe some fault in the wiring from the MAP to the engine controller, but that is less likely. A faulty MAP signal situation will lead to less than optimal control of the fuel mixture and thus needs to be corrected.
The 15 means the signal from distance/speed sensor on the transaxle is not getting to the engine controller relaibly. This would be noticed as a flakey speedometer readout or an intermittant odometer function. Usually this happens if a mechanic errantly pulls the right side half shaft out of the transaxle when working on the CV joints without first removing the sensor from its mounting on the top of the transaxle, thus damaging its gear. You can replace the gear on the sensor, getting the part from Chrysler. Alternatively, the plug for the sensor wiring is loose or dirty and you can check that out as well. It shouldn't do too much to the functioning of the engine, but the speed of the car is a factor in some engine adjustments. You can find the sensor behind the engine, down low at around the midline of the car on top of the housing out of which the half-shafts extend. It has a disconnect plug near by that you can open up and clean the internal contacts with electrical spray contact cleaner, if you choose.
So that is what the readout says. Now when you make repairs on any of these problems the fault codes will remain in the memory for 50-100 key on-off cycles, unless after you fix them you disconnect the battery for 5 minutes or so. Then they should all disappear except the code 12 which is of course going to remain because you just disconnected the battery to erase the other codes.
If you need any direction on tracing down which of the possibilities of each of these codes is the right one please let me know. The distributor sensor is under $100 and so too is the MAP if both of those were bad, rather than the wiring being bad. Do you have any manual that describes how to replace the distributor sensor? If not I can type in an instruction procedure for you. The MAP is pretty self explanatory (plug and vacuum line connections)
So I am glad that you may have found out the source(s) of you problem. Let me know how I can be of further help.
Roland
Answer -
Hi Duke,
Maybe I am wrong about the serial order, it could be the historical order in which they were detected?
On the manual, it won't show the 6cyl distributor which is different. Basically these are the steps:
Disconnect the 4 way electrical connector nearby
Remove distrib cap and inspect
Remove rotor (release screw is under the rotor arm)
Remove protective cover (2 screws)
Remove lead wire (the other end of the 4 wire connector) by removing its clamp hold down screw (this is on the outer circumference of the body)
Remove screw from the center of the shaft, lift off rotor spacer/attachment cylinder
Remove disc spacers and slotted disc and inspect for flatness, cracks, damaged slots
Remove bushing (surrounds the rotor shaft, but has a larger inner diameter than the shaft itself), and remove the 3 screws that retain the photooptic sensor. That is probably as far as you need to dismantle to put in the replacement sensor, if that is indeed the cause of your problem. I can give you the connection pin assignments between the 4-way and the 60-way at the engine controller if you want to verify that it isn't a wiring issue, before you buy a new sensor.
Another remote possibility is that the timing belt is beginning to wear out and that, if it did, would also set a code 11 because the distributor would no longer function when that happens. But I think that will happen all of a sudden and be permanent, not an intermittant sort of thing like you are having. Have you examined the timing belt lately? There are inspection covers located where the timing shaft sprokets are located on the front top of the engine.
Roland
Answer -
Hi Duke,
The photoptic sensor has 4 wires:
black/light blue goes to pin 4
orange goes to pin 7
gray/black goes to 24
tan/yellow goes to 44
all on the 60-way connector of the engine controller on the left fender shield.
If the plug is not numbered, hold it horizotally with the pins facing you and the short tab up. Start at the top left as #1 and go from left to right across to 20, etc.
Just to be sure, on the timing belt issue, verify that when you crank the engine the rotor moves.
Good luck. Starting at the distributor is the way to go. Once you can get spark for 5 seconds of cranking and the fuel pump will then run also, it should start or at least try to start. The MAP vacuum hose and connector is next.
Finally the distance sensor. The engine should run better with each step completed.
Roland
AnswerHi Duke,
The continuing 11 and 13 codes would still lead me to believe that the photooptic and the MAP are not good. When the car died after 4 minutes, did you happen to do the 5 second crank measurement to see how long the power was delivered to the + post of the distributor? If it was 1-2 seconds then that would be a confirmation that the distributor signal is not reaching the engine controller (or more likely not being generated). So that is my best thought at this time. On the wiring pin discrpency, I should mention that I have the '89 diagrams rather than the '88 and it could very well be that between those two years was when the 3.0L controller changed from a SMEC to a SBEC (module with 2 plugs on your '88 vs. board with 1 plug on the '89). If you were able to confirm continuity of some sort for all 4 wires, then it pretty much has to be the photooptic sensor that is bad.
On the high idle, that usually is caused by a vacuum leak which the engine controller compensates for the lean result by giving longer fuel inhjections which of course raises the idle. So look for any cracked or disconnected vacuum lines (starting again with the MAP since that code is still with you).
Roland
