QuestionQUESTION: I have a 51 buick roadmaster. when I turn the key on and press the gas peddle nothing happens...Have good battery,When i ground the terminals on relay it will run but wont turn off with key...Can you help??
ANSWER: We might be having a terminology problem here. Before I go off on a tangent, let's clear up some things, OK?
Your car starting system uses a device called a "starterator" - it is on your carburetor, and has two wires going to it. It is not a relay, it is just a switch. If it is working correctly, and you turn on the ignition key and then step on the gas pedal, the engine will crank. It may or may not start, but at least it will crank over.
I assume this does not happen - if so, this has to be either a problem in adjustment of the switch or the linkage, a bad switch, or a wiring problem (loose or disconnected wire on the switch.
There is no "relay" involved, unless you are referring to the starter solenoid itself. To make that solenoid work, you wouldn't "ground" anything, but you could put 6 volts on the same terminal that the starterator wire connects to, in order to make the engine crank over. Is this what you are doing to start it?
The ignition switch not "turning it off" seems odd to me. Do you mean that when the engine is running, the ignition switch doesn't turn it off when you turn off the ignition? If so, there is a serious problem with your ignition wiring.
Before I spend an hour telling you how to troubleshoot all these things, please clarify what you mean exactly by "grounding terminals on relay" and by "won't turn off with key. When I understand what the symptoms are, I should be able to help you because I am very familiar with this system.
Thanks
Dick
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QUESTION: Sorry for the garble...When i use a jumper wire on the terminals on the starter relay it cranked over...When i ground one of the wires on the accelerator vacume switch it also cranks over....so it will start.just not by gas pedal...when it is running and i turn off key it doesnt shut the motor down....i thought that it might be the ignition switch so i replaced it...i havent got her running since but did try to start it by pressing gas pedal but still will not crank...
ANSWER: OK, I understand better now. This is going to be like peeling an onion - one layer at a time.
Two things immediately strike me:
1. There is a problem with the wiring to your ignition switch. I see no other way to troubleshoot this than to follow each wire and identify what it is connected to.
Since you have a spare ignition switch to look at, follow me through this. If the back of the switch has letters by each terminal, they are something like "B", "I", "A" (or "ACC"). If you cannot find those letters, do the following: Note the length of the terminals - one will probably be longer than the other 2. That is the "A" terminal, and it is intended to supply power to your in-car accessories, (but only the ones that go on and off with the key).
To decide which of the remaining two terminals is "I" and which is "B", you will need a continuity tester or an ohm-meter.
If you do not have either one, you can buy a continuity tester at your local auto parts store - they consist of a cigar shaped thing with a battery and a lightbulb in it, and a probe on one end, with a wire to a clip lead attached to the other end. When there is a complete electrical circuit from the clip lead to the probe, the bulb will light up.
If you have an ohm-meter, set it to the "RX1" scale, and touch the two test lead ends together - you should see a very low OHMS reading - less than a few ohms - signifying you have made contact.
Whichever test device you use, connect a clip lead to the "ACC" terminal previously identified, and with the key in the off position, note that there is no connection to EITHER of the other two terminals. Then turn the key to the right ("on" position) - you should now see contact to BOTH of the other terminals. Lastly, turn the key to the left (Accessory position) - you should see contact ONLY to the "B" terminal, and NOT the "I" terminal.
If you were unable to identify which of the terminals is the "ACC" terminal by length of terminal, you can still identify the "I" terminal by noting the logic of the connections as detailed above: The only terminal that is NOT connected to ANYTHING when the key is turned to the "ACC" position is the "I" terminal. The other two terminals are seemingly interchangeable, but the correct one to use for the single large "power" wire is the "B" terminal
Having now identified the terminals, proceed as follows:
Disconnect either one of the battery cables from the battery for safety.
Verify that the wiring on the ignition switch that is in the car is connected as follows:
The "I" terminal should go to the ignition coil (+) terminal.
The "B" terminal goes to the ammeter gauge if your car has one (I'm not sure for a 51 Roadmaster - my 51 Buick did not, I don't think, but it was a Special - and that memory is 52 years old!). If not, it goes to another source of power, probably a circuit breaker, probably mounted on the back of the dashboard gauge cluster assembly. The "B" terminal wire will be thicker than almost any other wire under the dash, excepting possibly the wires on the headlight switch.
The ACC terminal goes to the various accessories in the car that are supposed to come on only when the key is on - the heater, for instance.
If that all checks out, next, using your ohm-meter or continuity checker, put one clip on the (+) terminal of the coil, and probe the following places:
1. The "I" terminal on the ignition switch, key in the "off" position. You should see continutity now.
2. The "B" terminal on the ignition switch, key in the "off" position. You should NOT see continuity now.
If you DO see continuity now, that explains why your engine continues to run when you turn the key off. Start disconnecting things until you find the electrical circuit that is causing this problem, rechecking for continuity to the "B" Terminal until it goes away. Start by removing any other wire that is connected to the (+) terminal of the coil OR to the "I" terminal of the switch, if there are more than the one wire on either of those terminals. If that clears the problem, investigate that additional wire to see where it goes. At this point I'll have to wait to hear from you as to what it was connected to before I know what to tell you do next.
Now on to the second problem, the starterator wiring:
The fact that you can make the starter crank by grounding one of the wires on the starterator switch is very odd - and I suspect a wiring error here too.
The two terminals on the starterator should be connected as follows: One wire should go to the same small terminal on the top of the starter solenoid that you jumper to 6 volts to get the starter to crank. The other wire should go to the "ACC" terminal on the ignition switch. Grounding either of the terminals on the starerator should have caused a spark and perhaps damage to the switch or the wiring, since with the key on, there is 6 volts one one of the terminals all the time the key is on, and grounding the other terminal, the one that goes to the starter, should have done nothing at all - it's already grounded via the solenoid wiring. So, something is definitly amiss here.
I hope this is all clear enough that you can follow it - if not, let me know and I'll try again!
Great cars - by the way - my folks passed their 51 Buick on to us newly married kids in 1956, and my wife drove it for years to work every day - a quiet, fast and very comfortable car.
Good luck with yours!
Dick
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QUESTION: The I terminal goes to ignition,the B terminal goes to ammeter and the A terminal goes to the Thermo circuit breaker...Everything looks good there.when i check the continuity with coil it goes as follows...ignition switch in the lock position I and B no continuity except the B terminal,,,ignition switch in the off position I and A have no continuity except the B terminal..ignition in the on position all 3 terminals have no continuity....as far as the second thing...I'm wondering if I have an open ground somewhere between solenoid relay switch and soleniod..what are your thoughts on that???
My uncle had a 52 special so when I saw this one for sale I jumped on it....My daughter fell in love with it...Little bit out of my car range though since I grew up with mostly 60's cars...But quite fun to work on
AnswerI'm probably going to irritate you by being picky here, but chalk it up to my engineering training - I want to be very sure I understand what you are telling me:
1. When you say the "I" terminal goes to Ignition, do you mean it goes to the (+) terminal of the coil? If so, that is correct.
2. The "B" terminal going to the ammeter is also correct.
3. The "A" terminal going to the circuit breaker is odd. The wires on the "A" terminal should go ONLY to the accessories that are supposed to go on and off with the key, and to the starterator.
The circuit breaker is a source of power, not a place to send it. If we have correctly identified the terminals on the ignition switch, this is definitely a problem that we need to straighten out.
4. In your reports, please verify that when you say "No continuity" you mean you have an open circuit; if you are using an ohm-meter, you mean the meter doesn't react at all when you connect its leads to the points of interest - am I right about that? With the key off or locked, there should be an open circuit everywhere on the switch (the one that is out of the car) - no terminal should be connected to any of the other terminals. This check won't work when the switch is in the car and hooked up to things, I was only asking you to do this on the spare switch that is out of the car in order to determine which terminal is which on the switch.
If the switch terminals are labeled A, B and I you don't need to bother with this, but if they are not marked, I think you'd best repeat this test on the switch that is out of the car so we know for sure which terminal is which.
5. What are you using to determine continuity: Do you have a meter, or are you using a continuity tester of the type I described with the battery and light bulb? The reason I ask is that if you have a meter, we can use it to do some further checking when we get all the wiring understood and corrected if needed.
Next, I had forgotten about the Buick's "Lock" position, bear with me while I try to dredge it up out of my memory. Is this lock the type that when you put it in the lock position, you can remove the key and no one can turn the ignition on without re-inserting the key, but if you just turn off the engine but do not "Lock" it, the switch can be turned back to "On" without the key? If so, I have to re-state a little bit about what I told you, as follows: basically, as far as the switch connection logic, "lock" and "off" should be identical.
This type of switch would have 4 posible positions: Lock, Off, Accessory, and On. Does it have 4 positions or only 3? The reason I ask is that you didn't mention the "accessory" position, but since the switch has 3 terminals, it should have such a position, so we need to know more about the switch. If you don't feel the switch has an "accessory" position, tell me and I'll try to understand what is going on here. Usually, the accessory position is either one click to the left or one click to the right from the "lock" position.
Also, let me be sure I understand you on these points:
You say in the lock position you have no continuity except the "B" terminal. I need to know what you mean here - what do you see that has continuity to the "B" terminal in this condition?. With the key off or locked, there should be no connection to anything through the switch.
You say in the "off" position, you get the same result as the Lock position, if I understand you correctly - this sounds right - there should be no connection to anything.
You say in the ON position, there is no connection to any of the terminals - this is a problem. Am I miss-understanding you here? In the ON position, all 3 terminals should be connected together.
Lastly, on the starterator wiring, I don't really understand what you mean about an open ground. There is no ground required in this circuit- the only connections required are the wire from one terminal of the starterator to the solenoid terminal on the starter, and the other wire from the other starterator terminal to the "A" terminal on the ignition switch.
We'll keep on this until we have it sorted out - just bear with me while we get our communcations clarified.
Dick
