Question-------------------------
Followup To
Question -
I have an 85 GL1200. When the engine is at ambient temparature (or cold) the stater motor turns, engages and bike starts normally. When the engine has been running for a while and especially on warm days, if the motor has not been shut off long enough to cool to ambient temparature, when attemping to restart the starter motor barely cranks the engine over - very slow. So far it has always managed to catch and start, but obviously I'd like to fix the problem. I had the battery load tested, OK. Next day, or after cooling, the starter will seem normal
Any ideas? I will likely take the bike to a Honda repair mechanic, but would like to be an educated
customer.
Jim C
Answer -
Hi Jim,
This is a common problem with GL's and other motorcycles. Usually due to worn carbon brushes in the starter motor, and/or aexcessive build up of carbon powder within the starter motor.
Visit the following links, all of which are great GL resources. You'll find an explanation and solution to the problem at the first listed website. Once opened, clcik "Sluggish Starter" link.
Respectfully,
Mark Shively
FOLLOW UP.
Mark;
A quick follow up, one of the pages you gave me, (msproul.rutgers.edu) says that it is necessary to remove the engine to remove the starter motor on '85 models. This will of course make the job very expensive what is your experience.
http://wings.astcomm.net/electrical.html
http://msproul.rutgers.edu/motorcycle/gwfaq.html
http://www.partsnmoreforum.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=bd440b013c03f7c2c36c1
http://www.epilcher.com/gl1000/carbs.htm
http://www.randakks.com/
AnswerThat's accurate on the 84 & 85 models, engine must be removed. Engine removal is alot of work, but it's not too bad of a job.
GL 1200 Engine Removal for Stator Replacement
Preliminary: All page numbers refer to pages in the Clymer's 84-87 GL1200 manual except where noted reference to Honda manual. You must have a small hydraulic floor jack to support the engine when out. Mark all electrical wires and hoses so that YOU know where they go. A good way to do this is using a permanent marker on masking tape on both ends. Mark so that A goes to A, B goes to B, etc. It is easy to forget after 24 hours which hose goes where. Where ever possible put nut/bolts back in the hole from which them came. A supply of Zip-lock freezer bags (so you can write on them) or small butter bowls is nice to organize loose hardware. Label what step it came from and it helps to lay them out in order of disassembly along the garage wall. Some people use the compass reference or a clock face when marking parts, (i.e. hose G goes to SW fitting under carbs) make notes to your self so it is an easy step by step procedure. (Just don't let your friends see the notes afterward, “widget goes on that fork thingy 2:00 by frame rail”. Good Luck
Supplies needed:
Silicone blue gasket sealer
Dot 4 brake fluid
Silicone spray lube
Silicate & Phosphate free anti-freeze
Distilled water
Oil and filter
Fuel filter
Exhaust pipe to head gasket (x4)
Intake pipe o-ring (x4)
Molybdenum grease for drive shaft splines
Rear cover gasket
Clutch cover gasket
Stator assembly
Recommended optional stuff
Zip-Lock freezer bags.
Permanent Marker
Air filter
Spark plugs
Timing Belts
Secondary air supply tube o-rings (X-4)
Upper and lower radiator hoses
Clutch slave cylinder seal.
Teflon tape
Exhaust header pipe to power chamber gasket. (I only used the left side, but you might want to replace both)
Get with a good shop and talk to the mechanic as well as the parts guy on what parts you'll need.
Good time to replace your timing belts since you are already there. And the clutch slave cylinder should have a new seal. Might get by with cleaning the old one but they are cheap. If you are looking for cheap, buy the timing belts at an auto parts store GL 1200 Honda Part # 14400-MG9-004
Gates part number T-070
Dayton/Dayco brand part # 95070
Napa old part number 25 90330
Napa new part number 25 0070
Another thing to consider is removing the rear wheel and final drive. Removing the rear wheel makes removing the exhaust so much easier. Once the rear wheel is off, you can remove the four nuts and slide the final drive assembly out. This makes it so much easier trying to get the engine back in. You do not have to fiddle with aligning the splines on the output shaft. I just did this and will do it that way from now on.
1. Place bike on Center stand, Remove side covers, Remove seat
2. Disconnect and remove Battery
3. Drain Engine oil
4. Drain coolant
a. Remove false gas tank
b. Remove radiator cap
c. Remove water pump drain screw (next to oil filter)
5. Remove radiator. pg. 283
a. Remove front fairing lower covers pg. 354
b. Remove fairing inner covers, (rear, black)
c. Disconnect siphon tube from radiator filler neck ( I took it off from the overflow tank, much easier)
d. Loosen lower radiator hose at water pump (good time to replace hoses)
e. Remove bolts securing radiator at bottom
f. Loosen upper radiator hose at thermostat housing
g. Remove upper radiator hose and pull radiator out at bottom (caution see next step)
h. Disconnect cooling fan electrical connector once the radiator is free.
i. Pull the radiator forward and out of upper receptacles on the frame (don't loose the rubber cushions at top of radiator)
6. Disconnect spark plug wires and tie up out of the way.
7. Remove rear brake pedal pg. 343
a. I only removed the brake pedal (step d. only) and had no interference problems
b. Remove the cotter pin and pivot pin from rod eye on end of master cylinder pushrod.
c. Remove bolt securing brake pedal to pivot shaft
d. Remove brake pedal
e. Remove pivot shaft? pg. 344. (One service manual does, another does not. I did not remove it.)
8. Remove exhaust system pg. 155 (note: Loosen engine guard at the same time, see step 11) (If you are going to remove the rear wheel and final drive, now it the time to do it.
a. Note: I just dropped the hole assembly then removed the exhaust head pipes on the left side only to have room to move the jack under the engine.
b. Remove nuts securing exhaust pipe flange to heads
c. Remove (or loosen a lot) clamping bolt securing exhaust pipe to power chamber.
d. Repeat steps for other side.
e. Remove the bolt on each side securing the power chamber / muffler to the frame. Have to remove the passenger floor boards on an Aspencade
f. Move the assembly down and out of the frame.
Note: I removed the rear wheel and rear final drive on the last engine change. Made all much easier. If you are in doubt about condition of the final drive o-ring seals there is not a better time than now. This makes engine alignment to the drive shaft easy. Remove the rear wheel, final drive and then you can slide the whole exhaust out the rear.
g. Reassemble: Use new gaskets in head, use heavy grease to help hold while inserting in head. Finger tight only until all assembled. (All fasteners started before any are tight.)
9. Remove the carburetor assembly pg. 128
a. Remove the air filter element
b. Remove screws securing air filter holder and remove the holder.
c. Remove screws securing air filter case and remove the case
d. Disconnect the vacuum line from the three way joint (pg. 4-5 Honda manual, it is in the north west corner of where the air filter case was)
e. (Turn off the fuel petcock, neither book mentioned this) Disconnect fuel pump outlet from carb assy. Plug end of line w/tee. (or let the little bit drip out.)
f. Remove screws securing R&L carb covers and remove carb covers.
g. Remove spark plug leads from clamps between Carbs.
h. Disconnect ignition control vacuum tube from vacuum fitting on right side. (Book wrong, mine was left side, number 4 carb intake pipe)
1) Reassemble: adjust cables IAW Pg. 130 (don't forget this step until after the false tank is on. The adjusting nut is down the left side of the frame near the voltage regulator.
i. Remove bolts securing intake pipes to heads.
CAUTION: Do not loosen rubber couplers to the intake pipes. They are bonded in place for alignment to the heads. (well no kidding)
j. Loosen the clamping screw securing rubber coupler to each carb.
k. Remove the intake pipes and rubber couplers from the carbs (rotate then pull off.)
l. Remove the large O-ring from each intake pipe. Reassemble with new o-rings, grease helps hold them in during installation.
m. Carefully lift the secondary air supply tubes from both cylinder heads. Lift the tubes just enough to clear the cylinder heads during removal. Don't lose the O-ring on each tube.
n. Place a shop cloth over the left cylinder head to protect it during carb removal. (Yeah, right, or just be careful)
o. Loosen the throttle cable at the throttle to provide slack. (Better to loosen the one by where the air filter used to be, give it all the slack you have)
p. Pull the carb assembly to the left.
q. I pull carb rack out until the hole in the top is half way under left frame rail. You can get to the throttle cables and can route the left spark plugs wires up into the center of the frame at this point.
r. Loosen lock nuts securing cable brackets.
s. Disconnect throttle cable from wheels and tie up out of way in frame.
t. Loosen choke cable to provide slack for removal. (Not needed, plenty of room without adjusting slack)
u. Loosen the choke cable clamp screw and remove the choke cable from choke linkage. (You must pull the carb rack assembly out a little further to get the choke cable.)
v. Caution: Watch the lower fairing tab on the left. It will scratch the #2 carb cover. (Luckily no one can see it when reassembled) If the left engine guard is loose enough to drop it below the top of the head, you have much more room to maneuver. But since you are following these dumb directions the engine guards are already off or at least loose.
w. Disconnect the vacuum line from the charcoal canister to the PC valve on the carb assembly if installed (California bikes I think, not on mine)
x. (2 People recommended to see interference from both sides) Pull the carb assembly out toward the left side. (Do not force it, if stuck check the secondary air supply tubes, they catch on everything)
y. Use silicone spray lube on rubber intake tubes and secondary air supply tubes when installing (spray silicone lube at auto parts store.)
10. Remove timing belts and camshaft driven pulleys Pg. 50.
a. Remove bolts securing timing belt covers and remove covers and gaskets. Don't loose the little chrome washers or the little grommets.
b. Remove ignition timing hole cap on the top surface of the cylinder block behind carb assy.
c. Remove spark plugs.
d. Using bolt on crankshaft drive pulley, rotate the crankshaft clockwise viewed from the front until the T-1 timing mark aligns with index mark on block.
e. UP mark on camshaft pulleys should be up, if not rotate crank 360. Mark the timing belts with R or L and arrow indicating direction of rotation. Top surfaces of both belts move toward left side of the engine. (I say, replace them. Buy from Honda at about $120 or from your local auto parts store for about $8)
f. Mark the pulleys. Remember they are in a different position if you are referencing as viewed from the front or as sitting on the bike, I used P & S for port and starboard, ended confusion.
g. Loosen bolt securing each camshaft driven pulley.
h. Loosen the bolts securing each belt tensioner assy.
CAUTION: Do not rotate cam pulleys or valves will hit pistons.
i. Remove the lower ignition pulse generator (I removed both and mark them top and bottom, 1984's have the pulse generators on the rear cover so not applicable)
j. Remove timing belts from pulleys. Pg. 51
k. Remove bolt and cam pulley; do not lose woodruff key. Put it in a piece of tape then tape that to the pulley. Label it cam woodruff key
11. Remove engine guard pg. 359 (much easier to at least loosen earlier with step 8. Remove exhaust)
a. Remove nut and washers on each end of the engine mounting through rod securing the center of the engine guard. Do not remove through rod. (On the three I've done, two had nuts on each end, an 86 A had a bolt with the head on the right side? Dunno? made it harder to get out.)
b. Remove nuts and washers securing lower front of engine guard on left side.
c. Remove nuts and washers securing U strap and the lower front of engine guard to frame on Right side
d. Remove the nuts and washers securing the U bolt on each side to the upper front of the engine guard and frame.
e. Remove the engine guards
12. Disconnect the engine breather hose from the top of the cylinder block. (Back by the fuel petcock)
13. Disconnect the following electrical connectors:
a. Engine ground strap (Mine was attached to the left triangle engine bracket. I removed later when removing the engine bracket in step 27)
b. Pulse generator (N/A if already removed from the front by the timing belts)
c. Alternator stator (this may be soldered. If not, remove the plug and solder in a new one. Honda sells a “kit” with a new plug and leads you can solder on. The new stator will come with one end but the only real way to clean the other end is get a new one. THEN KEEP THE DAMN THING FULL OF DIELECTRIC GREASE. Clean and re-grease annually, Check the un-regulated AC voltage coming from the stator annually. Should be at least 70 VAC
d. Shift sensor (and fan temp sensor, see e. next) (I disagree with both Honda and Clymer's here. I did not remove the shift sensor and fan temp sensor wire at the harness. I did not fully remove the engine from the frame. Just got it out far enough to turn sideways and get to the back cover while it was sitting on the jack. You have enough slack to do this. Otherwise you have to run the shift sensor wire out of that mess under the ignition coils. Easier to give a rattlesnake a root canal. If you are going to get the engine all way out and put it on the bench you will need to remove the difficult plug or,,,, I removed the last engine to do major clutch repair and needed it on the workbench. I pulled the shift sensor connector as the manual says. Took 2 hours to disconnect it and 4 hours to reconnect it. Next time I will cut it. I can solder the wires and heat shrink them in less than 30 minutes. Up to you. But I say cut ‘em. Strip it back first and mark which wire gets soldered where then CUT THEM! I just did this again and they are much easier to cut. I sliced the outer covering with a hook knife then cut each wire about 1” apart. That way all are different lengths and easier to figure which one goes where. Then all the solder joints are not in the same place. Aspencade has more wires because of the gear indicator. Interstate only had 4.
e. Fan temp sensor: Neither manual said this because they didn't have to do it. All of the temp sensor wires will come off at the engine. Might be different on another year model but all I've done had removable connectors at the engine except the shift sensor.
f. Remove starter motor wire.
g. Book did not mention this but there is a catch tank down by the starter. Remove the hose, remove the tank, and empty it. You should have been doing this as regular maintenance.
h. Book did not mention this but there is an oil pressure (I think) transducer wire on the top right rear of block. (I disconnected it)
14. Remove the fuel pump and fuel filter Pg. 149
a. Turn off fuel valve
b. Disconnect electrical connection (up by the right side of the fuel filler) (That little plastic clip connects the fuel pump electrical wire to the clutch hydraulic line. (You'd of forgotten by reassemble time)
c. Remove bolts securing fuel pump bracket (I just take the hose off at the petcock, remove the one screw holding the fuel filter on then take the pump, hose and filter all as one piece.)
d. Remove clamp from valve and remove pump and filter assy.
15. Disconnect rear brake light spring.
16. Remove clutch slave cylinder Pg. 110 (Reassemble, use Teflon tape on just the threads of the clutch bleeder screw. Then suck it out with a hose over the nipple and one of them syringes for giving liquid medicine to your kid or dog. A drug store or vet will have this type of syringe. Clean all the crud from the clutch master cylinder too, YECH)
a. Drain fluid from slave cylinder use hose to catch in jar.
GET DOT 4 FLUID
b. Remove the union bolt and two sealing washers. Don't loose ‘em.
c. Remove three bolts securing slave cylinder to clutch cover. Go after the hard one first
d. Withdraw slave cylinder from clutch
e. Clean the slave cylinder and piston. Good old soap and water. Take it into the kitchen (when she ain't look's) and use one of the scotch bright pads to remove stubborn stuff. Use lightly. If badly scored, get a new slave cylinder assy. Use just a little (15 psi) compressed air and the piston will pop out. The rubber seal can be removed and cleaned then reused, but they are cheap. NO nicks on the seal or it will leak.
17. Ensure all connections are removed from the engine. (I guess this means to go back and check that you did not forget any step) (like the oil pressure wire the book forgot)
18. Remove the upper bolts securing the backside of the engine front mounting bracket to the frame. These come down from the top. Located forward of where the air filter top is. Page 49 Clymer's, Honda manual Pg. 6-5.
19. Remove the lower bolts securing the front lower portion of the engine front mounting bracket to the front of the engine. Pg. 49
20. Remove the fan shroud and engine front mounting bracket.
21. Place a hydraulic jack, with piece of wood under the center of the engine with a small amount of jack pressure. (The engine is about balance when the jack is about 4 inches forward of the rear cover flange)
Reassemble: Tighten bolts in following order:
a. Right and left lower engine mount bolt.
b. Sub-frame cap nuts. (some will have to be later, engine guard)
c. Through rod (later when engine guards are installed.)
d. Triangle mounting bolts and through bolt (not to forget ground strap)
e. Engine front mounting bracket upper and lower bolts
f. See pg. 50 for Torque specs.
22. Neither book mentions this, but you have to remove the garter spring and the rubber cover for the drive shaft u-joint. Can be fun getting this back on, dental pick helps and duct tape that damn garter spring to keep it from rolling back down during reassembly.
23. Remove the bolt, washer, lock washer and nut securing the left lower engine mount. (The one that goes north and south) (Reassemble: helps to have a tapered alignment pin)
24. Remove the cap nuts, washers and lock washers securing the sub frame, remove the sub frame. (Re-assemble: only fingers tight until all are attached.)
25. Remove the bolt, washer, lock washer and nut securing the right lower engine mount.
26. Remove the through rod that the engine guard was bolted to. (Easy to bung up the threads here, 12mmX1.25 die is handy to have.)
27. Remove the rear through bolt. (Re-assemble the rear through bolt from left side; don't forget your ground cable.)
28. Remove the bolts and washers securing the triangular mounting bracket at the rear of each side.
29. Remove the clutch hydraulic line from the lip on the engine. (Right side by output shaft)
NOTE: Honda says up and out, Clymer's says down and out. Down and out worked for me.
30. Release a little jack pressure to allow the right lower engine mount to drop out of the mounting tabs on the frame.
NOTE: Don't snag clutch and brake lines, take the following steps slowly additional people help to balance and maneuver the engine. Then one additional guy who drinks all your beer then points and laughs when you drop something….
NOTE: Book said to move the engine forward to disengage drive splines however; I disengaged the drive splines first by pushing back on the drive shaft. It is spring loaded and will come back far enough to disengage. Roll the garter spring off the rubber boot and onto the lip groove on the engine. Then you can push the universal back far enough to disengage from the engine output shaft.
NOTE: If you have removed the final drive, this step is easy. Re-installing the engine is much easier with the final drive out and the U-joint pushed back. Getting the final drive to line up with the U-joint is not difficult when the engine is back in either. That's just my opinion.
31. Move engine slightly forward to disengage output shaft from universal joint on driveshaft. (Reassemble with Molybdenum grease on all drive splines engine and final drive and u-joint.)
NOTE: Without removing final drive, this is a pain to get back in, keep wiggling and the output shaft will suddenly drop right in as the lower engine mount goes into the tabs. Two people are required, but three make it better. One person on the shaft splines and the others balance the engine. This helps to rotate rear tire to align splines.
32. Pivot the engine out of the left side of frame in order to gain access to all sides. Move out far enough to pick up. (or in my case just enough to get it sideways to work on it right there)
33. I found good use for several wood blocks to support the engine while working on the rear cover.
34. Remove the bolts securing the engine rear cover.
NOTE: The new gasket comes on a piece of cardboard wrapped in plastic. While it is still in the plastic, poke holes in the cardboard with a small Phillips screwdriver where the bolt holes are in the gasket. Now you have a place to put all the rear cover bolts so you know what holes they go back into. Pretty smart, eh?
35. Remove rear cover and gasket. Don't lose locating dowels. (New gasket required helps to hold it with silicone blue, just a little goes a long way. If done proper little or no sealant will squish out)
36. Remove the three screws securing the stator assembly and plate to the engine rear cover. (Impact driver is mandatory to get them loose they are lock-tite sealed in place)
37. Remove the circlip securing the grommet to the engine rear cover.
38. Pull the electrical wires through hole and remove stator assy. Then heave the burnt smelly rascal as far into the neighbor's yard as you can. There don't ya feel better now? Reassemble circlip onto grommet with sharp edge facing out away from engine rear cover. Apply Loctite “lock and seal” to threads and base of the heads on screws securing the stator to the engine rear cover. Tighten screws to 7 ft/lb. (see pg. 100 for all torque specs) Take a picture of the mess while it is all apart so you know what a job it was. You are more likely to grease those electrical connectors more often when you have the picture hanging in the garage….. Now go get the old stator outta his yard before he calls the law….
See I told you it was easy… Now just go backwards and your bike is ready to ride. My trouble spots were getting the output shaft to engage, and getting the exhaust back on. Feel free to pass this on. If you find a step that is incorrect or have a better idea, please send me the feedback. As I type, there is a GL1200 in my garage with the engine just about re-installed. One thing I found very helpful was having another 1200 to peak at. Made it easier to figure out what hose goes where. If you know someone else who drives a 1200, ask him or her to supper. Say nothing about you needing a sample <G>
Want to know how I hook up the stator, too bad. Cut this section off then.
If you are the type who gets the bike all apart a couple times a year and uses dielectric on all connectors, this will probably not be necessary. But, Remove the white plug. Cut it off. Here I deviated from the Honda wiring. Any time electricity goes through a connector there is a voltage drop. It gets worse with age.
I cut the 3 yellow wires going into the voltage regulator. Cut them near the plug NOT near the regulator. Use 14-gauge wire and run directly from the stator to the VR. Cut three pieces that are plenty long enough to go from the stator output to the VR and give yourself a foot or so extra.
When connecting wires, I use heat shrink and those little rubber alligator clip protectors. Both available at radio shack. Put one of them alligator clip rubber things on each wire so that the big end is toward the Stator, then a 1 inch length of heat shrink on both wires. Move it far enough away to not be heated when soldering. Use a 12-gauge crimp connector. If it has plastic on it, pull it off. Now cut off just the part you would crimp. Spread it a little with a pair of Dikes. Trim back about a ¼” of insulation on both wires you intend to connect. Put each in the crimp you just made then crimp it. Now flux it then solder it. Now you know there are good connections. Slide down one heat shrink and go over the crimp/solder. Heat it, and then bring the other heat shrink up to overlap about 2/3 of the other. Heat it. Now slide your alligator rubber down over the heat shrink. You now have a waterproof, vibration proof connection and it looks professional, too. Repeat for the other two wires.
Now wrap all three together from the stator wire cover all the way up so they will pass through the frame up by the voltage regulator. It does not matter which wire from the stator goes to which yellow wire on the VR. (It is a three-phase alternator) Repeat the crimp/solder heat shrink where the wires connect at the voltage regulator. Now you have a direct path from the stator to the VR. Looks professional and will work the life of the bike.
P.S. If you are the type to sue me after you burn yourself with a soldering gun, I have nothing but an old GL1200 approaching 150K miles. (My ex got everything else, be happy to give you her address though.)
If you need to contact me:
motorcycle_dan@yahoo.com
Or snail mail:
R. Dan Pauley
9193 Kline Ln
Mt. Vernon, OH 43050 (stop by an' say Hi, if riding out this way.)
(740) 397-3492 (I have a phone in the garage now so you might actually catch me at home.)
