QuestionHello Dave, thanks for responding. I replaced what the Haynes Porsche 944 Manual is calling the clutch master cylinder, the one that is accessible under the hood by the brake booster. I did use a hose and a jar to bleed the line. My assistant did feel some pressure once as I saw this milky liquid coming from the hose into the jar. When he pumped the clutch again there was nothing and I got air again. We ended up changing the rubber hose that connects from the fluid reservoir to the clutch master cylinder because it looked dry rotted. We even jacked the rear of the car up to push the fluid toward the front of the reservoir. I would get a stream of fluid and then air and no clutch pressure. After a while I would just get air again with no clutch pressure. I am thinking that the problem is in the fluid resrevoir because before we attached the hose to the resrevoir we primed it wth fluid and he placed is thumb over the opening and got suction when the clutch was being pressed. I also got a stream of fluid as I bled the line. We primed it again and hooked it back to the reservoir and we would I would bleed some fluid and then air and finally just air. I haven't been under the car in about four days because I am frustrated. I am not going to give up I just need your advise. Thanks for your paitence and I am looking forward to your response. I just re-read your response about the pump the clutch thing. I must be doing it wrong. I should just hold the clutch in and then open the bleeder valve when the pedal is on the floor and open it to let the air out. Once the air is out my assitant releases the clutch and there is stil no pressure. I am at a loss....
Kevin
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Followup To
Question -
Dave, I was driving the car one day and my clutch went straight to the floor and stayed there. I just changed the master cylinder and attempted to bleed the system. We did the pump the clutch thing for 15-20 times and each time I would open the bleeder valve air and fluid would come out. The clutch pedal is still staying to the floor with no pressure being applied. I checked the hoses and connections that I could see and nothing appers to be leaking anywhere. My questions are does it ususally take a while to get all of the air out and I am being impaitient or is there something that I am over looking
Answer -
Hi Kevin,
I suspect something simple is the problem, but first I'd suggest we make sure we are using the same language and talking about the same parts.
You have a master cylinder that actuates the four brakes. Coincidentally, the fluid reservoir on the master cylinder is also the fluid reservoir for the clutch slave cylinder. The slave cylinder acts like a master cylinder but only works on the clutch; and, it is virtually hidden from view. It is only accessed from below the car with the starter removed.
So...did you replace the master cylinder or the slave cylinder?
Which one are you bleeding?
And to bleed the clutch there is no pump the clutch thing...the bleeder valve is opened and the clutch pedal is pressed to its limit. The bleeder valve has a rubber hose attached to it and the other end of the hose is resting in a jar with brake fluid covering it's end. The fluid coming out of the rubber hose will have fewer and fewer air bubles as the air is removed from the system. This is the method you're using, right?
Let me know.
Dave
AnswerFollow-up 7-5-06
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Hi Kevin,
I feel your PAIN! I have a very similar frustration level today because of a "little" problem with my wife's Mercedes. Sometimes it seems all the cards are stacked against you.
HOWEVER, I believe I just found at least part of our problem. I apologize for making a big deal out of the terminology...but here's what I discovered:
Your Haynes manual (and mine) confuses the issue terribly. The clutch master cylinder you and they refer to on page 143 is actually the brake master cylinder also pictured on page 156. So...if the "thing" you've been working on is this...and it's got a fluid reservoir...and its bolted to the brake booster...then it is important...but it's not your problem. The flexible line you say you replaced is leading to the clutch slave cylinder, which is your problem. It's on page 140. Now I don't presume to know more than Haynes, but...
What you should find is that both the brake pedal and the clutch pedal have push rods attached to them...and these rods run horizontally through the firewall. The brake pushrod activates the brake (or clutch) master cylinder through the brake booster. The clutch pushrod, either directly or with some lever arrangement, activates the clutch slave cylinder. This is your culprit. This is the one you have to remove the starter to get at. This is what you will want to bleed when you replace or repair it.
As for bleeding, just to make sure:
1. The jar has an inch or two of brake fluid in it and the end of your flexible bleed line (clear is cool to watch) is submerged in the fluid in the jar.
2. You can open the bleed valve before the assistant presses down on the clutch pedal, as he is doing it, or after. The key thing is to watch the air bubbles exit the bleed line and when they stop, close the bleed valve (or screw). Only then!!! can the assistant allow the pedal to return to its resting position. If he acts early, the old milky fluid will be drawn back into the cylinder.
And by the way...any evidence of milky fluid is VERY BAD. It means there is water, usually the result of condensation, in the hydraulic fluid. It's a wonder you could brake or clutch at all. You have to ensure both the brake and the clutch lines are full of only clear hydraulic fluid. In other words, keep pumping!
3. Repeat step 2 over and over ( I'd estimate no more that 10 times should be sufficient or there is another problem), checking the fluid level in the BRAKE/CL:UTCH master cylinder fluid reservoir occasionally; and reifilling it as needed.
4. Soon, when the bleed valve is closed and your assistant tests the clutch "feel", all will be right with the world again. I guarantee it.
Dave
