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Followup To
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Followup To .....I have seen some others with the same problem but haven't seen what actual resolves this problem. My Saturn started to stall last winter at the 5 minute mark after starting in cold weather temp. only (-12C or lower).
Hi Chris - okay my mechanics checked out the fuel pump and it's fine (pressure normal - attached a gauge to it and drove around). They don't feel this is it.
Apaprently checked all other sensors (as per your previous email - I gave it to them)and everything is okay. The only sensor that threw a code was the crank shaft sensor. Looked into it and it was cracked and replaced - but the problem persists, if not worse. They have kept the car overnight tonight as they truly are stumped and do want to rsolve this.
They also feel the tranny is slipping. Any other ideas?
Tina
Question -
I have seen some others with the same problem but haven't seen what actual resolves this problem. My Saturn started to stall last winter at the 5 minute mark after starting in cold weather temp. only (-12C or lower). I went to several mechanics and no one could find the problem. I believe the PCM needed to be reflashed )as per GM engineering dept and a TSB) but no Saturn service centre would do it. I got around this problem by warming the car up for 5 minutes, letting it stall, then waiting 1 minute and restarted the car and had no problems for the remainder of the day.
Now it's spring and the problem has escalated. Now daily at about the 10 minute mark after starting it, if I am stopped at a light, I stall - but can restart immediately. If I am driving at the 10 min. mark, the car sputters but I can push through it by pressing on the gas peddle slightly. Now it happens more frequently during the day, usually on cold starts.
My mechanics have looked at it and the only code that appeared was the air temp. sensor harness, which they replaced but no change. Also no other related code display. We also did the cam covr gasket as there was some oil in the spark plug wells, thinking that might be related, but nothing.
I have read some other stories both here & on other sites where they talk about cleaning the throttle body out, changing the EGR valve, other sensors etc... however, lets' face it: it's a 13 yr old car but only has 190,000km on it and I don't want to go broke trying to fix this.
Any suggestions or have you heard if cleaning the throttle body does the job or what does?
I want to drive my Saturn into the ground as I put very little mileage on it in a yr - maybe 12,000 kms/yr.
Any suggestions would be helpful at this point.
Thank, Tina
Answer -
Tina,
WOW! Great detail! Ok, let's get down to it. First, I have never heard of a Saturn stalling every time at exactly the same time. If I had to shoot from the hip right now, I would probably tell you to have the fuel pressure tested and monitored while the condition is happening. If you've only got 10-20 PSI while driving, you've probably found your problem. If the original fuel pump has lasted 13 years and 120k miles, I would be surprised. A faulty fuel pump would not necessarily throw a code in a non-heated oxygen sensor (with an OBD 1 (on-board diagnostics, Generation 1)) system. There are many possibles, but I think that this is more than possible, almost likely. An EGR valve opening at the wrong time can cause stalling symptoms. On a 93 DOHC, the EGR is controlled by a vacuum solenoid located on the side of the cam cover. The EGR can be physically bad (internal diaphram leak), or the solenoid could be bad. I won't say that it's impossible for an EGR problem to cause your symptoms, but I would FIRST look at the fuel pressure. Diagnosing intermittent, or even hard faults, with a Pre OBD-II system can be rather tricky. Make sure you find an old hand, someone who's been around the block a few times to look at your vehicle. With a little TLC and a couple of new parts, your vehicle should drive well, right into the ground. Hope this helps, let me know how it turns out.
Chris
-Massive Afterthough:
Just thought of something. Either check, or have checked, the ECT (Engine Coolant Temp) sensor. This sensor controls the air/fuel mix. If you have been getting poor fuel mileage with a combination of stalling/sputtering on startup, you can quit reading this message and say, "AhhHAA!" Remove the air cleaner tube and look down at the driver's side of the cylinder head. Underneath the radiator hose you should see two sensors plumbed into the head. They are identical sensors, they just do different things. You want to remove the sensor closest to the firewall. You need to pinch the connector to get it off the sensor. Take a deep 13-mm socket and ratchet and twist that sensor out of the head. MAKE SURE you relieve the pressure in the coolant system by removing the coolant reservoir cap and re-installing it. After you take the sensor out (coolant will be slightly leaking, don't worry about it) look at the head of the sensor. It is not supposed to have any cracks in it. I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that there is a huge gash in the side of your sensor. Anyway, it's a $15 part at your local dealer (don't buy the one at AutoZone). That might not take the problem away completely, but will certainly help. Let me know how it comes out!!!
Chris
Answer -
Tina,
Just to clarify, throwing a code and physically checking a sensor are two different things.
1. I have replaced many Crankshaft Position Sensors in my day, but only because the car would not start or run at all. The CPS controls (along with the help of some fancy computer program) the engine timing. The 1.9L does not use a camshaft position sensor like most other small engines do. It uses a reference off of the #1 and #4 ignition circuits.
2. An inop ECT sensor will most likely NOT throw a code in a '93. It needs to be visually inspected. I don't know if your shop visually inspected it, but I have a gut feeling that is where your problem lies. The greatest disadvantage of helping people online is that I can't see the vehicle or the condition when it happens. So, with that being said, I cannot think of any other condition that could cause your problem. Please make sure your shop visually inspects the ECT sensor. That's the only straw I can grasp right now. I hope this helps, and please let me know how it turns out.
Chris
Hi Chris - relayed this info to my mechanics again and everything checked out okay. They did visually inspect all sensors and claim that the ECT sensor was okay - even popped in a new to make sure and same problem occurred.
The problem has been narrowed down to the computer where some circuits are apparently not working. To rebuild the computer they have to send it out and it will cost $450 CAD. Cannot find a rebuilt one and a new one is apaprently $870 CAD from Saturn. My mechanic feels the car should still last a while - possible 1 yr plus for the amount driving I do. Plus I need a working car to get any trade in value for it if I decide to buy new or used.
I am going to ponder this option over the wknd and wait for your thoughts / comments on this. Not sure if I should sink any more $$$ into this os just cut my losses and let ehr go.
Awaiting your much appreciated comments,
Tina
AnswerTina,
I couln't say for certain that I've never seen a PCM cause this kind of problem. I only wish that I could inspect your vehicle, I like the challenging ones. Anyway, I wouldn't trust a rebuilt computer from one of the big name parts stores. (Infact, there's very little that I trust them for). Anyway, if your shop has checked everything, and they are a competent repair facility, let 'em rip. Saturns should run forever, given that they are cared for like you are doing. Tina, I'm sorry I can't be more of a help in this matter, there's just so much I do over the internet. I hope this helps, and GOOD LUCK!
Chris
