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Followup To Feb.8/06
Question - Hello Roland just a reply for your last answer to my previous question.The dodge dealer ordered a second computer for the truck and used the original VIN number.When they installed it the truck started like a new one and has been working fine for two weeks and the owner is happy.What I learned about this whole ordeal is try to find all the information about the vehicle especially if it has been smashed and repaired.The dodge dealer informed us the computer that was in the truck was not the one that belonged in it.It was replaced sometime with one that was what I was told had been flashed whatever that means.I also found out since 1995 the VIN of the vehicle has to be programmed into the computer to set it up properly with the proper information.This tells me you are unable to swap computers with one from say a 5.9 with a 5.2.the vehicle may start and run but it won't work properly.I was informed this by the dodge dealer when they programmed the information for the V6 into the first replacement computer.I can only believe what I am told by those who know.I think this is all the information I can remember about this truck.If I think of anything else I will let you know.I want to thank you again for your abundance of knowledge and patiently answering my questions.The owner is also thankful it has saved him substantial money with your help on this problem.Until next time thanks again Wayne.
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Followup To Jan 12/06
Question - Roland this is what happened since I last wrote.The truck was towed to the Dodge dealer and the computer was diagnosed as the problem.The dealer ordered a refurbished one and said they had to program the VIN of the truck into the computer telling it what type of vehicle it was.When they put the VIN in the computer it started but idled rough.They found that the VIN was for a V6, therefore was running on 6 cylinders.They also knew the truck was smashed before and the VIN was wrong.They said it was their mistake and had to order another computer at no charge to the owner because he had given them the proper VIN, and today they installed it and said they programmed the right VIN and it still runs on 6 cyls.This seems very confusing to me and the owner,we are at a loss trying to decide what to do next because they are saying they have to order another computer and charge for this one and the next one. It is getting to be expensive.We are wondering if you know or have any information explaining the procedure for replacing computers or if you can direct me to another location that would have that information.It seems to me that this information that is programmable into a computer can be changed at a dealership via a Tech hot line if needed.I mention this because I worked for a Telephone company and when we had certain troubles we contacted such a hot line to fix the trouble especilly programming problems.I hope the wording is not implying we are out to get the dealer for their programming error that is not the case.Awaiting a reply.
Thanks Wayne------------------------
Followup To Dec 17/05
Question - Roland this is the story,I replaced the crank sensor,the cam sensor,and coil with dodge parts as suggested by the dodge dealer still no go.I removed the PCM and tested for continuity all the wiring associated with the asd relay and coil circuit T.O.K.I was loaned a service manual from the dodge dealer to verify the testing methods and along with your suggestions everything test ok.The next question is related to the position of the crank sensor and cam sensor.Maybe I'm grasping for staws but I was testing for crank sersor voltage to the PCM 5.17vdc on GRY/BLK I already had 5.0vdc on VI/WH.which is normal.The same for CAM sensor.I noticed that CRK voltage was only at 5 degrees TDC not TDC.Also CAM sensor voltage was only present about 90 degrees away.I am unable to find info in the manual to verify if this is correct.I was wondering if some how the engine jumped its timing while the owner drove with a broken valve or if by testing the compression I may have caused it? The other question is I talked to another mechanic and he suggested changing the distributer because there is a potential problem with them.
Thanks Wayne
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Followup To Dec 13/05
Question - Roland I replaced the crank sensor still no fire to plugs.
I purchased a Hayne,s manual to get info on testing for this problem.What you suggested is in line with the manual.According to the book I had to put my analog meter + lead on pin 3 and ground lead on 2 to check for 5vdc tested ok when key is turned on.Next I tested with crank sensor connector together + probe on 3 and - on 1 turn motor by hand and saw fluctuating 5vdc ok same test for cam sensor. I don,t have the manual in front of me to verify the pins but i,m sure I was on the proper ones. The previous test I was looking on ac scale which wasn,t right.Also as I turned the motor by hand the relays operating were the fuel pump and asd.I then tried to start the truck while monitoring 12vdc at coil.There was 12vdc when I turned key on and as the motor turned there was 12vdc showing on the meter.I borrowed an analyzer but it didn,t show any codes.I think it was only good for emissions codes.Tomorrow The owner is going to pick up another coil and cam sensor.If that doesn,t fix the problem he will either put the truck in storage for the winter or tow it to dodge repair shop, any suggestions to try will be appreciated.
Thanks Wayne.-------------------------
Followup To
Question -Dec.8/05 Roland I tested the way you suggested with an analog meter set to 10vac.On the cam sensor lead there was fluctuating voltage as the engine cranked.The crank sensor didn't test any voltage so I removed it and cleaned the contact surface,replaced it and tested again no go.I do have 5vdc input to both sensors which is good.The replacement sensor is $165.00 this is one reason for hesitating to replace it making sure the testing is done correctly.I will wait for your reply before replacing the sensor and if that works I will write back with the wire colors on the sensors for your future reference.
Thanks Wayne.
Roland the last time I wrote to you was in Jan.about a no spark on a 3.3liter concord.This time it's a dakota 2 wheel drive 5.9l automatic.When the truck was brought to me there was no compression on #1,I took a reading on all cylinders and the rest had 165lbs solid ,no leakage.I removed the valve pan and found a broken valve spring.Replaced it and compression was 165lbs.For some reason there is no fire at the plugs.The owner replaced the wires,cap,plugs,and rotor button.The truck was running before, although very rough with the broken valve.I was reviewing the answer to my previous question and wondered if the same answers applied.There is 12vdc at the coil + term.and ground from the pcm to the other term.The ASD relay operates and releases in about 2 seconds removing the 12vdc from the coil.Is there a way to test the crank sensor and cam sensor without an analyzer.If so could you email the test procedure and conditions I should see.Thanks Wayne.
P.S.I wrote back about the concorde and it was the cam sensor,the one we replaced from the autoparts store was defective.
Answer -
Hi Wayne,
That 2 second duration of the ASD before is cuts off the power to the coil is consistent with either the crank or the cam shaft signal being absent. I suspect you either need a diagnostic readout box or an oscilloscope to observe whether the wires that carry those signals from the sensors have pulses on them when you are cranking the engine though it could be that a rapid response voltmeter would jump back and forth at cranking speed. The signals would be on the tan/yellow and the light blue/dark blue wires of the cam and crank sensor respectively if the wire colors used on the 5.9 were the same as on the 3.3/3.5L engines.
I haven't tried to look at the signals from such a set up that way. More traditional would be to use an OBD-II reader to see which sensor's fault code is stored in the memory. I am making some assumptions about the 5.9L engine because I really don't have a manuals that cover that one. If there is any chance you can borrow a code reader that would be the way to find out positively which signal is missing.
Thanks for reporting on the previous problem. I would be glad to hear from you about this one too.
Roland
Answer -
Hi Wayne,
Those tests seem to be relevant to your problem. The crank sensor is for spark initiation while the cam is for localization of which injectors and which plugs to fire the specific spark. Be aware though that a new sensor comes with a paper on its tip which is supposed to left in place so as to provide a precise space between the sensor and the moving surface that it interacts with. Pulse patterns of each cylinder hash mark that passes the two sensors are dissimilar between the cam as compared to the crank sensor, but I suspect that if the crank were o.k. that you should have seen some sort of response on your meter. While it would be helpful to have a code readout to verify it, if that is not practical I would go with a new crank sensor. But be sure that you weren't looking at the ground wire black/light blue)of that sensor rather than the signal wire.
Roland
Answer -
Hi Wayne,
It is always frustrating when you fix one thing (the valve spring) and then something else that was alright acts up. You can't be sure if it was just coincidence or something that you may have caused.
It appears that the sensors are working, backed up by the lack of codes and the ASD holding for 5 seconds of cranking. So if there is no spark it either has to be the spark coil (which I would retest using the center wire from the coil held 1/4" from the cylinder head so as to test only the coil, and by-pass the cap, rotor, and wires) or the cap or rotor or wires (which you said are new) if the coil proves to be good. Or it could be the wire from the pcm to the - post of the coil, or the pcm itself may not be pulsing the - post to ground even though the sensors are giving it a signal to do so. So to test the coil: I would take a 0.33 microfarad capacitor and put its + side on the -post of the coil (remove the regular wire on the post), the capacitor's - side on ground, jump 12V to the + post of the coil from the battery (remove the regular wire from the + post), and then hold the tip of the center wire of the coil 1/4" from the head and then momentarily ground the - post of the coil which should generate a one time spark to occur if the coil is good. This may take two people to do the test!
If it doesn't produce a spark then the new coil will probably do the job. If that does produce a spark then the coil is o.k and either the - post wire from the pcm has a break in it, or the pcm has decided to quit. If you can find the pin on the plug-in to the pcm, that comes from the - post of the coil, (I don't have the wiring diagrams) then you could retry that capacitor grounding etc test, but now with the - post wire reconnected to the coil. If you get a spark that way then the wire is good. That would leave you with a bad pcm.
But since the owner is getting a new coil you could just as well wait until tomorrow and see if the new coil will produce a start of the engine.
I hope this will be solved for you shortly.
Roland
Answer -
Hi Wayne,
I am quite disadvantaged having no manual and no familiarity with that engine. On the suggestion of replacing the distributor, it would seem that you could by-pass the rotor and cap by merely testing for spark directly from the coil tower. If you get spark there at the tower then the distributor cap/rotor makes sense, or the possibility that the the shaft is not rotating is possible, so look for that. Otherwise, it still is a problem with the ASD not providing voltage to the coil or the pcm not providing a "driver" signal to the coil. If you aren't getting a fault code for signals from the sensors being absent, and yet the ASD won't hold for more than 2 seconds, then you have to wonder if the ASD is flakey (try shorting it closed, similar to your earlier technique of putting 12V directly on the coil) and if proves to show the ASD to be o.k. then you are left with the PCM either not interpreting the signals or, if it is, why isn't it sustaining the ASD beyond 2 seconds, which points a finger at the ASD. I haven't personally tried to read voltages from the sensors as you have, so you are a step ahead of me.
I suppose checking the alignment of the cam sprockets when the engine at TDC should be a way to easily check the question of timing belt (I don't know if the 5.9 has a belt or a chain, if the latter that would be doubtful).
So those are my observations for what they are worth. Please write back with any progress or questions.
Roland
Answer -
Hi Wayne,
I am not very knowledgeable about the programability of the engine control computer. There is such a capability on the transmission control computers of the electronic automatic transmissions, but I haven't heard of that being the case for the engine unit, save for the VIN number. But I may be out of touch with the situation. It is my belief that there are different computers for the different engines, so if the computer is for a V-6 and you have a V-8 I would believe that the wrong computer has been ordered and that you should not be on the hook to pay for it. The computer plug wire assignments for the two different engines would be highly unlikely to be identical, so I don't believe it will be solved by any type of reprogramming. I would take up the matter with the regional parts or regional sales office of the Chrysler Corporation which has the authority to negotiate/overrule/or remedy disputes between a dealer and an owner. Then there is the small claims court as a final recourse for restitution which you may avail yourself of. You took the vehicle to the dealer and had reason to believe in their expertise, and paid list prices for the part and premium hourly charges in that expectation. It appears that you didn't get what was to be expected from that implied contract.
Please keep me informed of the resolution of this unfortunate situation.
Roland
AnswerHi Wayne,
Thanks for the update and resolution of the problem. Yes, there are so many variables that are handled by the controller depending upon the engine and trans that it is supposed operate that I would question how complete and accurate a change (reflash) of the memory can be without something being overlooked. And knowing the history of the vehicle is clearly important. I'm glad to have been of help.
Roland
