QuestionHi Roland, its me again. I just have some questions about the tests you told me to do. First off, when I am testing the coil am I supposed to have the wires on or off. On the ohms between the + and – I get 1.6 on the new coil. Is that ok? When you say test between the spark post and the body, do you mean that tower part and one of the two posts, or the side of the actual coil. If it is the side I don't get any reading. If it is the post I get 17.0. When I test the rotor is it supposed to be turning or idle? I also don't understand how to check the wire from the controller to the to the 60 way plug. I tested the one you told me with continuity and ohms and got no reading for either. I get readings if I stick a probe in any of the other holes though. What am I looking for and what kind of test? Lastly, why would the engine contoller go out just from fixing a leak? Thanks again for the help. Paul
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Hi roland, you must be sick of hearing from me by now but I am still not getting a spark, and I'm ready to drive this car off a cliff, but it won't start. I did the diagnostic test completely and the only one that didn't sound a horn was the hood opening or closing. Would that keep it from starting? I can't check the things you said to check cause I don't know what or where they are. If you have any other ideas I would love to hear them. Thanks, Paul.
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I guess Im going to need that self diagnostic for the security because the doorlock idea did not work. also there was a k in the tenth position so I guess it is an 89
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Hi roland,
I'm back again with some questions and some answers to your questions. First of all no, there were not any electrical problems before the work was done but he did not touch anything electrical to do what he did. I put in a new coil and then did the 5 second test you told me to do(I did'nt know if you wanted me to do it with wires connected or not so I just left them all connected)and I used a 12 volt light. When cranking the light stayed on for the full 5 seconds and longer. When I rechecked those codes again I found out that the codes were really 1, 2, 5, 5. In my haynes repair manual it says number 12 is "problem with stand by memory circuit, Direct battery input to controller disconnected within the last 50 ignition key-ons" It might as well have been written in chinese because I don't understand a word of it. One more thing, I don't think the lights were flashing cause of the hazards I think it has something to do with the alarm system cause I found the owners manual for the car and the alarm system is supposed to do some weird things. I've been saying that the car is a 88 because that is what it says in the door but I found out it is actually considered a 89. Thanks again for all your help I will be anxiously awaiting your response.
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Hi Roland,
In answer to your questions, the car is a 6 cylinder, and the relay is actually on the drivers side. I have'nt done the 5 second spark test yet cause I have the multimeter and did'nt make it to my buddies house today, but I had him check those codes and he said he got 45, 54, 55. I hope that can tell you something. Another thing I forgot to tell you is that when the lights on the car start going crazy it drains the battery almost completely, in an extremely fast rate. And I really need to know what size fuses go into all the spots because I have a feeling they are wrong, but most importantly number 1, because there are no wires hooked up into the back of it and I don't know if it is supposed to be that way. Anyway thanks again so much your a life saver and you are doing us a really good service. I'll keep checking for your response. Paul.
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Hello Roland,
My mom has a 88 crysler new yorker landau. It had a bad oil leak and I brought it to a buddy's to fix it. He pulled the whole front end of the motor to replace the whole front end gasket kit. when He was finished he turned the key and it would turn over but would not start. Then when he turned the key off, the parking lights and brake lights started flashing like crazy(the horn was not sounding). We had to disconnect the battery to get it to stop. We can smell the fuel and hear the fuel pump so that is ok. We checked for spark and there was none. After we spend a lot of time checking different things and testing things and testing the coil over and over again trying to get a spark, sometimes we will suddenly get one spark and that is all, then the flashing lights start again. One time after messing with stuff a relay on the right side of the car(its labeled 19224 12V 0 332 002 177 on top, 4373065 and 085 circled on one side, and 76225 1 on another side)started clicking like crazy. Removed it, and put it back in and it was fine. We have been messing around with this for about a week now. We got the car for my mom for chrismas last year and it has always run perfectly without the slightest hitch, and my friend is a good mechanic, he works on all my cars and always has, but I think we are just to unfamiliar with all the electrical concerning the codes and brain and stuff. If you could help me it would be so appreciated, My mom has been without her car for almost a month. Thanks so much.
P.S. Ive also checked everywhere for a diagram or something that shows what goes where in the fuse box located in the glove compartment and cant find one anywhere(not as important but if you know I could use that info also). Thanks so much.
Answer -
Hi Paul,
I looked up the relay whose part no. you gave me and find that it is for power to the anti-lock brake unit. Let me know how you are progressing if you like.
Roland
Hi Paul,
I have the '89 shop manuals for the FWD cars including the New Yorker. I suspect they are applicable to your Mom's '88 because that was the year that body first came out. Do you have the 4 cyl or the 6 cyl.? That may be important to know and second when you said a relay on the right side did you mean the passenger or the driver side (the driver side is the left side in common practice)?
Let me give you a couple of things to do/try that is standard for a 'no start' with this generation:
The standard approach begins with two actions. One is to read out the engine controller for the presence of fault codes that would give a clue. I'll tell you how to do that later.
The other is to check the primary circuit of the spark coil to see whether and how long it is being energized during a 5 second crank. You need a voltmeter or neon glow lamp to do that. Just attach one lead to the + post of the spark coil and the other lead to the - post of the battery or anyother grounded metal part on the engine. Then you can watch the meter (or light) while you crank the engine and see if you get 12V power for a full 5 seconds of cranking, 1-2 seconds, or not at all. (If you can't observe from the driver's seat have a helper crank the engine for 5 seconds.) If you get the full 5 seconds then the coil or its connection to the engine controller is bad, if you get it for 1-2 seconds then it is probably the ignition signal from the distributor that has been lost, and if you don't get any power at all it is either the autoshutdown relay or the controller itself that is bad.
But let me know, before you jump to any conclusion, because there are futher tests to do, depending upon which response you get.
To read out the codes, which are two digit numbers, just turn the ignition switch
"on-off-on-off-on" within a 5 second period.
Then
watch to see the check engine light to begin to flash, followed by a pause then more flashes, pause, etc. Count the
number of flashes before each pause and write down these
numbers as they come. (Repeat the readout to make sure that you have the numbers correctly).
The last two groups of flaches will always be five
flashes each, which is the number 55 (because the codes
are all two digit numbers), and 55 means the readout
is completed. Then going over all the numbers you have
written down, group them in pairs in the order that they came out to form the other
two-digit numbers that constitute the "fault' codes for your
present situation.
Write back and tell me what you found and I'll give you further suggestions.
Roland
P.S. I have the fuse block assignments for a 20 position box in the glove box, and also there are a couple of relay blocks. Any particular fuse you are interested in?
Answer -
Hi Paul,
Here in brief are the instructions for replacing the photooptic sensor in the distributor:
Basically these are the steps:
Disconnect the 4 way electrical connector nearby
Remove distrib cap and inspect
Remove rotor (release screw is under the rotor arm)
Remove protective cover (2 screws)
Remove lead wire (the other end of the 4 wire connector) by removing its clamp hold down screw (this is on the outer circumference of the body)
Remove screw from the center of the shaft, lift off rotor spacer/attachment cylinder
Remove disc spacers and slotted disc and inspect for flatness, cracks, damaged slots
Remove bushing (surrounds the rotor shaft, but has a larger inner diameter than the shaft itself), and remove the 3 screws that retain the photooptic sensor. That is probably as far as you need to dismantle to put in the replacement sensor, if that is indeed the cause of your problem
Hi Paul,
On the light flashing like crazy when the key is in the off position, that is the hazard flasher system so check whether that switch at the steering column got turned on accidentally. If not, then pull fuse #12. Maybe there is something wrong with that system that is the cause of the draining of the battery.
On the engine controller readout, I believe that it should be read out again because the 45 code is not one that is appropriate for 3.0L engine, but rather only applies to an engine with a turbo. Notice that the check engine light is "on" when you leave the key in the on position, so don't count that as a flash, rather start counting after it does go off momentarily. The 54 code says that one of the two signals from the distributor (the spark and fuel pulse signals needed for starting and idling) is not being detected by the controller which usually means a failure of the data pickup unit in the distributor. That is a photo diode unit with a four wire attachment that comes out the side of the distributor, so check for a loose plug or a broken wire. The four wires are wired as followe: orange to pin 7, tan/yellow to pin 44, gray trace to pin 24, and black/light blue to pin 4 of the 60-way plug of the engine controller. To count the pins hold the plug horizontally with short tab up and count from left to right with the contact pins facing you ( but there may be numbers etched on the plug).
If those check out, and a re-reading (first disconnect the battery for a few minutes to erase the codes, then try to start the engine again) still gives the 54 I would believe that a new photodiode unit for the distributor is needed. There are several screws that need to be removed in order to get to the unit, so write back and I'll give you the steps if there are no instructions with the unit you buy.
The 55 code means "end of readout".
On the fuses the sizes in order are: 20 20, 10, 10,4, 20,20,5,30,30,20,20,20, 20,30,20 10,20,20, 10. The #1 fuse is for the concealed headlamp door module if you have that feature.
If the battery is draining rapidly, then you need to measure the resistance at the + post clamp of the battery when it is removed from the battery as compared to ground (any shiney metal surface of the body or the - post clamp. It will read nearly 0 ohms. Then pull the fuses one at a time, measure the resistance then replace each, to find out which one(s) cause the reading to jump up to a much higher value. Be sure that no doors are open or anything electrical is turned on when you do the fuse pulling resistance measurement procedure. The circuit of the fuse that when pulled causes the resistance to jump up to maybe several hundred ohms is the suspect circuit. If that doesn't produce an improvement in the resistance then there may be short in the harness between the battery + clamp and the fuse box so look at the harness under the hood for a defective component that doesn't go thru a fuse: the starter motor ( big red wire), starter relay, alternator, two anti-lock brake relays (one was clicking crazily you said), auto shut down relay, headlamp switch supply wire at head lamp switch. This probably requires that you have a wiring diagram of the battery/ fusible link/ starter, etc circuitry so let me know if you can't find out where the battery drain down source is.
Did the car have any electrical problem like this before you began this oil leak repair? If not, then retrace everything electrical that was touched in the leak repair process to see where you went wrong. Otherwise I can send you by postal mail xerox copies of the wiring diagrams for this early part of the system.
Roland
Answer -
Hi Paul,
If it is an 89 it would have a K in the 10th position of the vehicle identification number, so check that.
I think what may have happened is that when you hooked up the battery the vehicle security system armed itself and now all you need to do is lock and then unlock the driver or passenger door with a key in order to disarm it and allow the car to start. So give that a try.
It sounds like the rest of the ignition is o.k. based on the code readout and the voltage test.
If it still won't start there is a self diagnostic for the security system you can try, but let me know if simply disarming the security doesn't get it going again. The 12 code just verifies that the battery was recently disconnected. It will remain in the memory until you cycle the ignition key on-off 50 time via normal use of the car.
Roland
Answer -
Hi Paul,
Here is the self diagnostic protocol:
A diagnostic mode is available in the system to verify operation of all monitored switches or circuits. To enter diagnostics, cycle the ignition key to the accessory position 3 times, leaving the key in this position.
Upon entering diagnositics, the park and tail lamps will begin flashing to verify their operation. In addition, the horn will sound twice to indicate that the trunk key cylinder is in its proper position. Returning the ignition to the OFF position will stop the lamps from flashing while keeping the system in diagnostics.
While in diagnostics mode, a horn pulse should occur at each of the following events indicating proper operation:
(1) Beginning with all doors closed, open then close each door. The horn will sound when the door ajar switch closes, and then again when the switch opens. There must be a 1 second delay between closing and opening the switch.
(2) Open, then close the hood. The horn will sound when the hood is opened, and again when it is closed.
(3) Activate the power door locks in both the lock and unlock directions. The horn will sound after each activation.
(4) Rotate the key in each of the door lock cylinders to the unlock position. The horn will sound as the switch closes, and again when it opens. There must be a 1 second delay bwtween changing switch states, or the horn will not sound.
(5) Cycle the key to the ignition RUN position. A single horn pulse will indicate proper operation of the ignition input. This will also take the module out of diagnostics mode. For any of these tests, if the switch does not remain open or closed for at least 1 second, the horn will only sound once.
The lack of a horn pulse, during any operation, indicates a switch failure, the lack of that input in the Vehicle Theft Security system module, or a failure internal to the module. Check for continuity at the switch, if this is good, check for an open or shorted wire between the switch and the alarm module. Also, check if the SBEC (engne controller) has been replaced recently. Vehicle Theft Security System will not function until 20 engine cranks.
This is taken verbatim from the Shrysler shop manual.
Roland
Answer -
Hi Paul,
Sorry to learn that it still won't start. I am not clear if the failure to start could be caused by the hood test being a "no go", but at least why not check that switch? There is supposed to be a switch mounted on the left fender so as to sense the hood being in contact with it. I don't know where exactly it is or what it looks like but there is some sort of an actuator that the hood will contact when it is closed. The wire from the alarm module to the switch in question is tan/black so when you find something with that wire you have found it. The closing of the hood should ground that wire, I believe, or unground it, but in any case the connection should be reversed. So disconnect the wire and put you ohmmeter on the switch and read the resistance between the connector and ground with the hood open and with the hood closed to verify that the resistance changes from 0 to infinity, or the reverse of that. If not then the switch is bad. If it does change resistance,then reconnect the wire to the switch and then you will need to go to the glove box and remove it so as to reach the area directly above it where is located the theft alarm module, which has a 21 pin "natual" color plug. DO NOT UNPLUG IT. Rather find the same color (tan/black) wire on the side of the plug with 11 wires, the position will be one 'in' from the end of the 11 wires on that side. Take a small fine straight pin and poke it thru the insulation so that it hits the conductor inside the wire and then measure the resistance again with the hood open and the hood closed. It should behave the same way as the switch itself did. If not, then there is a break in that wire. If it behaves the way the switch did then the wire is o.k. and I don't know why the test was a "no go".
So, I guess that is all I can suggest for now.
Have you read the manual about the theft system? Might it give you a clue as to how the system is supposed to work?
Roland
AnswerHi Paul,
I agree that this is strange if no part of the engine control or electricals was touched. The test for 12V while you crank should be with the wires attached as normal and the meter leads should be placed on the + post of the coil and on a 'ground' or the - post of the battery.
The coil resistances should be measured with the wires disconnected. The primary 1.6 ohms is fine. The second measurement is between the high tension wire socket (with the spark wire removed) and the body of the coil where the strap that holds it in place is wrapped around the coil body, assuming that it is not painted or otherwise insulated electrically from the strap. The reading between the tower socket and either wire post should be infinite (the high tension coil is supposed to be isolated electrically from the low tension coil, which is what you are connected to when you read 1.6). So if you read 17 ohms between the socket and either post there is something wrong with the coil. Try the same reading using the old coil if you have it. The resistance between the socket and the body of the coil is what you should measure and it should be about 17,000 ohms, not 17 ohms.
The rotor should turn when you are cranking the engine (you have to remove the cap on the distributor to see this motion). On the continuity test, why don't you see if there is near 0 ohms between the black/gray wire on the - post of the coil and pin 19 of the plug for the controller. That is the wire that needs to be switched on and off of ground potential to get a spark to occur when there is 12V on the wire at the + post. That is the only reason you might not get a spark (if the rotor was turning and you still are not getting any 11 or 54 code, which verifies there is no problem with the four other wires from the distributor to the controller which I had suggested you check) I think that is a good enough test and you don't need to run the test on those 4 wires.
Is there any possibility you can get the fellow who did the mechanical work to give you hand with this, assuming he may have more experience? I think there must be something very basically wrong but I can't imagine what it is. You may need to tow the car to a shop if you and your friend can't get it to spark. I am out of suggestions at this point.
Roland
Roland
