QuestionQUESTION: I have an all original '50 packard that is constantly overheating. I replaced the thermostat and had a radiator shop check the radiator which is fine. The man at the radiator shop said there are too many fins in the radiator core between the water tubes that are preventing air flow. Does this sound right to you ? How can I verify this ?
The fan in these inlines are small any way to optimize the flow being so close to the generator and all ?
Thanks !!!
Kevin
ANSWER: I'd like to know under what conditions the car overheats - to make a better diagnosis, but I can give you a few thing to check first.
I don't know what the radiator guy was trying to tell you - it makes no sense to me. The more fins the better - they are the heat transfer surfaces.
If the radiator shop did a flow check on the radiator and passed it, and you are sure your water pump is in good shape, and the fan is turning (the belt doesn't slip), the car should run in the normal range under any conditions, including parade duty - mine all do, and I have many of these cars (straight 8 Packards).
The original design of these car's cooling system is excellent - the fan and water pump is quite adequate for good engine cooling - don't experiment with changes - you need to attack the real cause.
When these engines show overheating symptoms, assuming the engine runs well and has normal power, the cause is almost always an accumulation of crud in the engine block. If the block has not been cleaned out in the last 5 years, it's due.
The procedure is simple, but messy, and you may want to hire someone to do it for you.
Before you do it, make the following test. Remove the drain plug from the block on the driver's side, just in front of the starter, low on the block near the oil pressure sending unit. There is a plug threaded into the block that is there to drain the block to protect it from freezing - remove the drain plug and see what comes out.
Typically, unless the block is clean inside, there will be little or no coolant come out, until you poke into the drain hole with a small tool like a small screwdriver. Once you poke in there, you will typically get a muddy stream of very dirty looking water. If that is what you see, your block is contaminated and needs to have a thorough cleaning. The only way to do this is to remove the core plugs (also called "freeze-out" plugs) that are pressed into the side of the block on the driver's side. There will be either 3 or 5 of these, each about 1 1/2 inches in diameter (depending on which engine your model has), and each must be removed, then the block passages have to be physically probed with small tools and flushed with a high pressure hose nozzle to force all the mud and crud out of the block passages. This is a very dirty job, and has to be done thoroughly, or it is a waste of time.
To do a more complete job of cleaning out the cooling system, the front grill and radiator has to come off so the water distribution tube (behind the water pump) can be pulled out and cleaned, and the head has to be removed for the same procedure, but just cleaning out the block will make a big improvement, and you may not need to do the rest of the job.
After the block is cleaned out, and before you refill the cooling system and start the engine, temporarily install a coolant filter in the upper radiator hose to trap any loose debris before it plugs up your radiator. Leave the filter in the hose for a few thousand miles while you check it and clean it out periodically in order to see how much stuff is still circulating in the coolant - when it no longer seems to be catching particles, it is safe to remove it. The best coolant filter I have found is the GANO filter - do a Google search for it.
If the block checks out as clean inside, tell me more about what is going on when it overheats - and also tell me about the condition of the engine (and which engine you have - 288, 327, or 356 Cu In). Tell me what you see and hear when it overheats (boiling, steaming, temp gauge reading, coolant discharge from the overflow tube?) and also tell me what the actual coolant temp is in the top tank of the radiator as measured with a precision thermometer.
Dick
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Thank you for the input. Didn't even think about cleaning the block. What do you think about using engine cleansers ? How do you remove/reinstall the freeze plugs ? I usually do them during engine overhaul not in the car.
Thanks again
Kevin
ANSWER: Engine flush cleaners are a waste of time, in my experience. The accumulated mud in the water jackets is so well compacted and dense that the cleaners do not do any more than remove the surface of the mud - you really have to open up the block and dig out the mud.
To remove the plugs, you have various choices - I use a small punch to make a hole in the middle of the plug.
(Be VERY careful not to let the punch impact the cylinders - which are right behind these plugs - about 1/4 inch in, for some of the plugs, depending on where the plugs are located - since I don't know which engine you are working on, I can't be more specific, but you can see the outline of the cylinders from outside the engine, looking just above the shape change about half way up the block from the pan rail.)
Then I enlarge the hole by prying at the soft metal that the plug is made of until I can insert a brake "star wheel" adjusting tool to pry against the side of the opening, levering the remains of the plug out of the opening. A sturdy good quality screwdriver would probably work also, especially if you can bend the last inch or so of the screwdriver at a 45 degree angle. This method is time consuming, but works pretty well. You do need to be careful not to knock the plug into the block, they are devilishly hard to get out if you do that!
Another method is to use a dull rounded bar with a hammer to tap one side of the plug toward the inside of the engine, making it pivot in the opening so you can grab the protruding edge with a vise-grip pliers and wiggle it out of the hole. This is faster, but requires better access to the side of the engine than you may have.
You may have to remove the starter, generator and the oil filter to get good access. Try to work around the distributor if you can. If you do remove the distributor, be sure to mark the position of the rotor before you remove it, and make very sure no one rotates the engine while it is out! Plug the distributor hole while it is out!
When you replace the plugs, my preferred way is to use the cup type, and make very sure to clean the hole surround very well for good sealing, and put a very thin skin coat of Ultra-Copper sealant on the mating surface of the cup (not in the hole - you don't want any of the sealant to get loose inside the water jacket). I use brass cups, except for the one cup that is easiest to get at, right in front of the starter. For that last one, I use steel, so I get early warning if there is corrosion developing due to the owner's poor maintenance of the cooling system - the steel one will fail first, and then I only have to replace that one. (Sort of like the canary in the coal mine.)
The replacement plugs are available from any good quality auto parts store like NAPA - the supplier is Dorman - and they have all types.
If you need the dimensions, tell me which engine you have and I can look them up for you, or of course you can tell Kanter Brothers and they can supply them also.
Dick
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Hi again... Good news Bad news. Good news is the antifreeze was perfectly clean coming out of the plug.
No obstructions, almost emptied all the fluid in the few seconds I had the plug out. Bad news we are back to square one.
About the car. It has a 50 super8 288. Everything was totally restored about 17 years ago. Explains the clean antifreeze I guess.
Problem arises when the engine is warm and I stop for a few minutes. The temp creeps up to the top of the gauge.
I was at a toll booth the last time. Time before that I was in line at a hamburger joint.
There is a steady flow in the radiator when the thermostat is open. Looking into the cap.
Replaced thermostat with kanter unit 180degrees.
Had radiator checked out by a radiator shop. (original question)
Gauge reads in middle when normal. Fluid temp is 180degrees at the top of the radiator when normal.
Don't know what the temp is at gauge highest reading usually shut down before that and don't want to open cap
to check ;)
Seems like my truck used to do prior to me adding a big paddle fan. Couldn't get airflow in idle with small fan.
What do you think ? BTW..I really appreciate you taking the time with this.
One thing I did notice was there is a little antifreeze being slung from the fan. Looking into rebuilding the water pump and/or just replacing it. Already replaced all the hoses when I took the radiator in. Connections are tight. I wouldn't expect a slight leak to cause the problem especially when the radiator is always kept full.
Thanks again
Kevin
AnswerHmmmm. This is a puzzlement, as the King of Siam would say.
The coolant slinging off the fan blades probably means the water pump seal has failed - and the pump will have to be rebuilt. However, I don't see why this would make the engine overheat.
Does the car seem to have normal power? (I'm trying to rule out a partially blocked exhaust system or an engine state of tune problem).
It's not important, but a Super 8 would have had a 327 engine when new (the engine number would start with 4 for the first numeric digit), a 288 starts with the number 2. Not that this has anything to do with your problem. A 327 should move your car very well - those were powerful cars for their day. The 288 is a good engine also, just slightly lower HP.
If I got this right, it only overheats when the car is stopped, idling. With the engine idling, and your dash gauge telling you things are really hot, do you hear any boiling if you shut off the engine?
I have to wonder if the temp gauge is telling you the truth. These gauges are notoriously inaccurate.
Can you beg, borrow or steal an infrared type temp sensor? These are pistol grip tools with a laser pointer to tell you what you are aimed at - and sell for around $60 at the auto-parts store - I have one that I use all the time for checking on temperatures around an engine. Auto-Zone will loan one to you (you pay a deposit equal to the retail price, but they give you your money back when you return it).
I'd be very interested to know what you would measure on the upper radiator hose where the water leaves the engine at the front top of the engine. Check the metal pipe just below the bottom edge of the upper radiator hose. Then check the the metal pipe where the lower radiator hose clamps to the water pump (this tells you the temp drop as the coolant passes through the radiator).
A possibility is that the impeller is slipping on the water pump shaft - but since you see good water circulation when the engine is cool, that seems unlikely. It would have to be slipping when the engine is hot, but not when it is cool.
There is a safe way to remove the radiator cap when an engine is hot: get a nice thick bath towel (I hope your wife isn't reading this) and soak it in cool water, fold it so you have about 4 layers of Turkish towel in your hand, then use it as a mitt on the radiator cap to take the cap off - you might lose some coolant this way, but you won't get scalded. Then you can stick a normal bulb type thermometer (borrow the candy thermometer in your kitchen drawer, or buy one at the supermarket housewares department - they only cost about $5). This looks like a foot long fever thermometer - the old fashioned kind.
Stay with me here, we'll get this figured out. Do you know the history of this problem? (I mean, did you just buy the car, or did this just develop after years of no problem?)
Dick (who just drove his 47 today - a hot day here in the high desert, and the temp gauge never goes about mid scale, even in parades).
