Porsche Repair: Porsche 911 dependability, acura nsx, porsche 911

Question
Hi Dave. Thanks for taking my question.

I am considering purchasing an older Porsche 911 Targa (1982-1984). I have owned several semi-exotic cars, enjoyed them thoroughly, and paid out the nose in repairs. While I am not nearly as broke as I was in my 20's, as they say, a burnt dog fears fire.

Besides the obvious, how practical is it to assume I can find an older Porsche and not have constant repair issues down the road? What do I look for? Could it be a daily driver? Is there a better car for the money - say an Acura NSX or other model or Porsche? I know these are broad questions, but you do have a lot of experience with Porsches and have fielded many questions so I would greatly appreciate your views.

Thanks again,

art.


Answer
Hi Art,

Coincidently, just last evening I responded to a lady about her friend's interest in an '85 Targa.  I'll attach a copy of my comments for you.

How practical is it to assume I can find an older Porsche and not have constant repair issues down the road?  Everyone who loves Porsches actually agree on this point:  by the time the company introduced the 3.0 SC in the late 70's and the Carrera 32. in September '83, the 911 had become a truly refined and reliable car...PERFECT for a daily driver.    

As far as the '82-'84 range is considered, you're coveriong the end of the SC's and the beginning of the Carreras, so keep the model change affect in mind.  You won't be able to exactly compare an '82 to an '84 for instance.   Owners and especially dealers will try to extract a bit more $$$ from you if you look at the Carreras.  On the other hand, if the truth be known, besides the badge cahnges on the car and the 200cc engine increase in size, the other changes were nothing more than traditional annual Porsche upgrades.

If you'df like some input on a particular car, I'd be happy to lend a hand.

Here's waht I told Barb...I'n sure you will get a lot of good ideas here:

"Hi Barb,

Thanks very much for the information.  It is VERY helpful.  I'd like to address some of your comments as a way to get into a few ideas to consider.

1.  "My main concern, neither of us know much about cars and buying a used car is a bit of a leap of faith".

Well, this is not a problem, we all have to start somewhere.  My intuition tells me you will make the right decision (I suppose I'm really talking to your friend here, but Barb, you're the one who wrote in, so "you" will mean "the two of you", OK?).  Just by asking for advice is the best step forward you can make.  I'll have to say that regarding cars, we men will tend to give you ten different answers if you ask ten of us.  So...get a couple different viewpoints.

For example, the mechanic who said the car was excellent.  Did you ask him if he'd spend that kind of money for that car?  Keep in mind that if the dealer suggested that mechanic as THE place to go, his answer may be influenced by all the business he gets from your dealer.

OK, so I don't trust everyone...sorry.

2.  "She really LOVES this car but does not want to buy a car unless she knows what to expect".

You are not just considering a used car, you are considering a used Porsche.  That has several implications.  First, I commend your choice of manufacturer and the model you're considering.  The later '80's Carreras with the 3.2 liter engine is a very fine machine.  Basically, you are benefiting from the fact that the 911 was introduced in about 1964, and so for 21 years the car was refined and upgraded every model year.  So the '85 is better than the '84 and the '86 is better than the '85; each year small improvements were made to address customer and dealer complaints, as well as design improvements.  But the '85 is a far superior car than the '64.  Would I buy a '64?  In a heartbeat, because it was a great car in its own right.  But if I wanted all the spirit of the '64 and refinement too, the '85 is a great choice.

On the other hand, the notion the car is "collectible" is quite a stretch of the imagination.  A daily driver?  Absolutely!  Collectible because it's so rare?  Nope.

Now's as good a time as ever to start the price discussion.  This will be from the collector's angle.  How did your previous owner do?  I'm estimating he bought the car new in '85 for $36-$40,000.  Let's use round numbers and say he had the car for 20 years and sold it for $27,000 (probably less) to your dealer.  So...his "investment" cost him: $9,-$13,000.  Any real "collectible" car, if held twenty years, would have appreciated in value.

3.  "My friend is basically looking for a fun, drive on sunny days car".

I can't think of any car that could be as fun.  Great choice.

Keep in mind that this is not a car that you can drive, put away, and forget.  While it's a refined car, it's not a 2006 Lexus that will probably run for the first 100,000 miles with an occasional oil change.  And the Lexus will tell you what it wants when it wants it via the use of very sophisticated computer sensors.  The Porsche has virtually none of that stuff to clutter things up and it will need regular maintenance.  You will have to keep track of when, why and where.

I'm not really a big fan of Porsche dealers, as I believe they have overvalued $$$ their services for a long time.  But even the excellent independent shops (and you'll want to find an excellent independent shop) will charge you quite a pretty penny for labor.  

I don't know what kind of car you're driving now, but be prepared...Porsche parts are some of the most expensive...not Ferrari expensive...but high up on the list.  This is because the parts are likely some of the most well designed and crafted.  Like the cars.  The cars are not meant to wear out.  But sometimes a part will get old  and breakdown...when it does, you'll be the one helping to pay for that boat from Germany shipping cars and parts over here.

4.  "The book has maintenance stamps up until 94".

This concerns me.  It's quite unusual to find any car that's been driven only  680 miles per year (17,000 miles/25 years).  To find a Porsche with such low mileage is astonishing.  

The problem is, in my opinion, this car's "low mileage" is a big negative instead of the big positive the ad probably says.

Here are a few considerations:

- If the car was "maintained' til '94,  the maintenance record seems to suggest it was sitting practically idle from 1994 to 2005.  This is a great way to keep the mileage low, but not at all good for a car, particularly a thoroughbred.  As an analogy, you're looking to buy one of two race horses.  One runs everyday and is looked after like someone's child.  The other is also pampered like a baby, but it stands in its stall all day for fear it might hurt itself if it goes to the track.  Which one is the horse more likely to win the next race?

- I'm confident the mechanics will or have found the major flaws, but for a car supposedly so babied (and for which a premium price is being asked) I actually would expect very, very close to perfection.  And frankly, its no surprise the white smoke you referred to can't be explained by the mechanics...I'm sure they've never seen a Porsche before with that symptom.  I suspect it's a lack of use issue, but I can't explain it beyond that.  For that kind of money I would not even consider a car with unexplained smoke, white or otherwise.

Perhaps what I'm concerned about is the flaw that shows up on the third or fourth day or week or month or your ownership.  Sure, the same concern can be raised about any car.  Except that the owner who drives the car regularly (even every Sunday) has gone through their own 'shakedown period' and knows all the little nuances and annoyances and things that need to be fixed.  You have to rely on the word of that mechanic after he'd been with the car one day.  Maybe two days.

And talking to the previous owner now won't do any good because he'll likely say, "Well, pretty ladies, I don't really drive the car much anymore...but she's a beauty, right!"

-  Don't ask me what the "right" mileage is...I'm not THAT smart.  But at 17,000 miles you've got the worst of all situations.  You can't buy the car as a collectible (as discussed above) since a collectible '85 Carrera probably has only 83 miles on it and the sticker is still on the window.  Eighty-three miles is "like new"...17,000 isn't.  Porsche's typically hold their value well, but when you start at such a premium price, there's sure a lot of room for depreciation.


That price, as you can tell by now, really bothers me.  Especially for a novice Porsche owner.  Forgive me...I am not trying to offend you.  I'd rather see that car go to a "someone" who owns or has owned Porsches before and perhaps has always dreamt of the perfect car...and this is it.

For you, I'd suggest a couple different approaches.

oo By all means keep up that research.

oo Check out ebay motors for real world/fairly representative prices.  Here's a start:  ( I searched ebay motors for '82-88 Porsche Targas)

http://motors.search.ebay.com/targa_Cars-Trucks_W0QQa10239ZQ2d24QQa10244ZQ2d24QQ...

oo There's nothing wrong with the '85 Carrera.  I'd love one.  But...if you've never driven one, the five speed transmission will seem a bit foreign.    You'll have to drive the car for a couple weeks to feel really comfortable finding 2nd rather than 4th gear or 3rd rather than 5th.  Let's just say the gearbox will need some getting used to.  With this done, you'll find the shifts are as smooth as butter.

But...remember... I talked about the upgrades made every year.  Well..you can tell what was "bad" about a particular Porsche by what they "upgraded" over the next couple years.  Because of this I'd really like to see you consider the '87+ cars.  You'd get a couple more years of refinement AND a brand new transmission, that "fixed" what some considered a weakness in the earlier cars.  Bottom line:  easier to jump in and drive comfortably on day one.


If I've burst a bubble, I'm terribly sorry.  If you've made it this far through this note, you really are serious about Porsches.

I think you are right on track with the idea of finding the best car you can.  You certainly do not want a maintenance headache or a project car.  So...despite my obsession with "price" I'm glad you're willing to pay a premium price for an excellent example.

Here's the car and owner you want to find.  NOT a DEALER.

Your target is the private party who's owned the car for a long time...best if they bought it new.  The car and the maintenance records and the owner himself/herself paint a very clear and consistent picture:

The car is in excellent condition considering its age.  The paint and interior are original.  The car has never been in an accident (I know...am I crazy?)  Give me just a minute, OK?  The owner speaks of the car as if it is a grandchild: the car is always within sight and earshot, it's always dressed for the occasion, at the slightest sniffle our ears perk up and immediate attention is provided.  The owner discusses, in detail, the positive attributes of the car and reveals the negatives (every car has negatives) too.  The negatives are not consequential...meaning there is no price concession asked or offered.  The price already reflects positives and negatives.  The owner is willing and happy to allow a mechanic/shop of your choice to perform a pre-inspection (and you will gladly pay the $$).  The owner is willing and happy to allow a body shop of your choosing to perform a pre-inspection (and you will gladly pay the $$).  Even if the car is supposedly, accident free, have the body shop confirm this. (Here, if you think the owner thinks you're calling him a liar, tell him you want the body looked at to understand the costs and issues related to a possible new paint job). Whichever provider has a lift, the car's underside must be straight and a match for the rest of the car.

Possible sources:

oo ebay     for price comparisons...buying a car sight unseen is scary.  I've done it, but it is not for the faint-hearted.  I've also flown from California to Arizona to see a car firsthand before a purchase.  If you treat it as an adventure, it can be quite fun.  I imagine two friends going car shopping across state lines would be (  you  fill  in  the  blank  )!

oo Porsche Club of America ( www.pca.org/ ).  These folks typically provide great care for their cars...which is what you want.  However, some of the guys are a bit fanatical about their toys and will talk you heads off.  The idea here is that any club or internet forum where Porsche owners congregate is a likely place for nicely/smartly maintained cars.

oo  As an entre into that independent Porsche repair shop you'll want to build a relationship with, consider this:  Ask the owner to keep his eye out for XYZ Porsche, for sale by a private party; you my get lucky.  Mechanics, quite often, know about cars for sale long before they are on the market.  

oo Me.  Unless I have bored you to tears and totally turned you off Porsches. I'd be VERY HAPPY to look at and evaluate any car you might consider.

With that, your eyes should be sleepy, time for a nap.  I wish you the best of luck finding that Sunday driver!"

Art, let me know if I can help in any way.  Dave