Question-------------------------
Followup To
Question -
-------------------------
Followup To
Question -
-------------------------
Followup To
Question -
-------------------------
Followup To
Question -
-------------------------
Followup To
Question -
I Sold a pair of Magnaplanar speakers when I moved here a few years ago.I haven't purchased speakers in 10 years and I figured technology has improved and prices have gone down.I was overwhelmed by the choices and most places emphasize home theater,heck you don't even see specks for FM performance in a reciever anymore at least not in the stores.Anyway price is always the limitation and unfortunately I had little to spend only about $200 and I realize sonic performance will be severly compromised or so I thought I buy my equipment except tvs and vcrs which i won,t all used.I was never fully happy with any speakers I have owned.regardless of fooling with placement and different places and rooms I have listened in.Anyway to make a long story short I went to a place where any music lover would never think of purchasing speakers the Salvation Army Thrift store.I was really there looking for clothes because any electronics I have ever seen especially speakers always had some cone damage,on Friday there were two pairs of speakers ,Canton was one don't remember the model# and a pair of Sony SSAV 55 both floor standing .I figured klet me bring in My Dynako Stereo 70 Amp and a portable Cd player to listen the man was very helpfull in the store and said Ok so along with a good cd ,(I went through that trouble because all they could play was Fm and reception was poor in the store).I am fussy about sound but the Sonys were better the speakers had amazing accurate reproduction of instruments such as piano,violin and horn,vocals especially male sound right,not chesty or heavy,and the bass is decent but my question is .Does the same company generally make the drivers and crossovers for brands like Sony who are not speaker only manufacturers that make them for the higher end brands,Polk,Vandersteen and package the same quality at a lower price?Because of simply the brand name. Cause these speakers honestly I think could rival those costing much more.Or is it I don't truly know good sound and have never heard a good high-end system? I have been a music buff for over 20 years and believe quality of electronics continues to go up as prices come down and don't feel you have to spend alot anymore for great performance.Also my Tube amp is 8 years old since I bought it from someone who retubed it,should I spend the money for someone to test it and do a bias adjustment to make sure it is up to par or consider a solid-state model ready to handle home theater? My pre amp is a PS Audio 4.3 and cd is an old Denon DCM 420 changer.Any advise?
Answer -
Dear Peter,
First, let me apologize for having taken so long to respond to your question. When I first opened it day before yesterday, I did a little research and made some notes, but pressing matters, er, pressed, and I got so preoccupied that I didn't get back to your question until this morning.
Speaker quality is not limited to the manufacturer of the voice coils and drivers. For the record, yes, many companies source their drivers from Vifa, a Danish manufacturer. Some modify them; some use them stock. Some companies, notably B&W and Legacy, make their own drivers from scratch. The latter companies feel that making their own drivers gets them closer to their sound objectives. However, just because two companies may, on the other hand, use Vifa drivers doesn't mean that their speakers will have the same sound or even that the companies using them have the same objectives in making the speakers.
So much more goes into speaker building: cabinet design, acoustic design, number of drivers, crossover design. Each can be tweaked in thousands of different ways, each tweak having an effect, some minute, some profound, on the finished product.
All of this, unless you're an engineer and want the specs to support your listening decisions, really means little when it comes to auditioning speakers. First rule: trust your ears. Second rule: audition in your own environment. The second rule is the toughest to follow simply because very few sellers will let the product out of the showroom, or the thrift pile, until you've made your purchase. But in a sense the second rule is the most important because speakers will have very different reactions and perform differently depending on the listening environment. So, what you hear when you audition in the showroom/thrift store may not be precisely what you hear when you get them home.
However, realistically, if you're buying from a thrift store (nice, if risky, idea), then you're going to have to take a chance that what you'll hear at home will be very close to what you hear in the store. Very good idea, BTW, to bring your own gear, especially since you use tubed gear, into the SA for your formal audition. (Tube amps and preamps are sonically finicky. Each sounds a bit different due to the age and biasing of the tubes and of course the design of the amplifier. These are factors which don't apply to the vast majority of solid state designs, which have few, if any, sonically meaningful differences.)
So, what you'll get with "name" brands like Polk and Vandersteen is the result of a design philosophy regardless of the source of the drivers. And the bottom line is: if you like how the Sonys sound, do you really care that they're not "name" brand speakers? The sound is what you want. The price is right. Where's the problem with that thinking?
Now, gearing up for home theater is an entirely different enterprise. First, your Dynaco (amazing how those just keep hanging around) doesn't have the speaker outputs to accommodate home theater (duh). Second, the audio requirements for home theater aren't--IMHO--as critical as those for music. Music is a complex reproduction proposition. The speaker designer has to account for the whole audio spectrum from the lowest bass (say, 25Hz) to the brightest piccolo overtone (say, 10kHz) and then some. Movies are basically dialog and sound effects with a score (or more commonly well-known rock songs) thrown in. The frequency envelope for movies, then, is very narrow, around 2.5kHz to 3kHz with some allowances made for thundering battle cruisers, explosions, and the like, which go down to around 80-100Hz and usually need a subwoofer to be heard loudly. Yes, the score is important, but you don't go to the movies to hear the score.
All this means that a system designed for music will do well with home theater, but a system designed for movies will not necessarily do well with music. I've reviewed some home theater 5.1 and 7.1 arrays that were wonderful with movies but absolutely sucked with music--you wouldn't play one of your yellow Peter Pan records on it without cringing.
My suggestions are these. First, go with your ears with the Sonys. If you enjoy their sound, they have to be good, right? Second, purchase an entirely separate system (A/V receiver and speakers) for home theater. Oh, you can integrate the two. Use the Sony speakers as "front channel" or the stereo speakers for music and augment them with center channel and surround speakers for movies, but you'll have to ditch the Dynaco and PS Audio gear for an A/V receiver, and you'll notice a very different sound with the music--one that you may or may not enjoy.
Finally, you are very right that advances in engineering and manufacturing efficiencies have increased speaker quality while relatively holding down prices. The leaps in speaker quality vs. price over the past 20 years have been indeed profound. So, yes, you don't have to spend a lot to get great sound. (Which is why I write for The Sensible Sound--better sound for less money.)
I hope this long and meandering screed responds to your questions and concerns. If you have more questions, don't hesitate to write back. That's what I'm here for.
Good luck! And thanks for choosing allexperts.com!
Kindest regards,
Kevin Thanks.I know the Dynaco won't do it for home theater and yes the problem with auditioning even a fraction of the many speakers on the market the ones in my price range is bringing them home but a store is a lousy enviroment and I figure if pair B is better than A in the store it will be at home,second don't they make seperate home theater amps and preamps or is that a waste of money and are you better off buying a reciever? just don't have plans for home theater anytime soon though.Also I am using old Monster 300 interconnects and speaker cables I made that you gave directions for in your magazine many years ago,wish I saved it.Should I at least upgrade the interconnect from amp to CD player?
Answer -
Dear Peter,
Re wire. In short, no.
Although a number of reviewers swear by the "sonic improvements" to the sound of their system by adding high priced wire (interconnects, speaker cable), there is not one shred of scientific evidence that I have seen which would support the notion that using "99.99% oxygen free" copper wire or "99.9% pure" silver wire in lieu of well-construction Monster Cable or Radio Shack gold-plated interconnects produces an iota, if any, audible sonic difference. IMHO, all high priced wire does is separate you from your cash more quickly than low priced wire.
Further, I have traded all sorts of speaker cable and interconnects in and out of my rig (Sunfire amp, AVA OmegaStar III EC preamp, Parasound C/DP 1000 CD player, Legacy Classic speakers) until my fingers hurt, and I've never, not once, heard an audible difference in its performance.
Re home theater separates vs. receivers. The only advantage to separates is that you can replace the amp and preamp independently when you want to upgrade. But with home theater, you'll upgrade when (1) they add new sound decoding algorithms or (2) they add to the already available 7.1 channels. If (1), you'll only replace the preamp. If (2), you'll need to replace both. However, since neither is in the near future, a receiver is a more sensible investment. A receiver is cheaper and costs less to upgrade--even the whole thing.
Kindest regards,
KevinThanks,I have a hookup question,should I route the audio output of my DVD player to the audio ins of my TV and use the tv audio outs to my preamp or route them directly to the preamps cd input? Exceptin the last scenario I will have to turn the whole stereo on to hear a DVD,which is a better option?
Answer -
Dear Peter,
The disadvantage to routing the audio output of your TV anywhere, unless your TV is (1) an HDTV model and (2) made in the last 2-3 years, is that TV audio outputs are notoriously low powered, so you'll really have to crank up the volume to hear anything through your stereo speakers if you so choose. HDTVs made in the last 2-3 years have started to have fairly decent on board amplifiers which will drive speakers independently or provide a decent signal to a preamplifier.
Therefore, I would choose your second option: routing the audio output of the DVD player to your preamp. This makes even more sense when you figure that the better sound on a DVD's audio track is engineered for that kind of configuration. Make sure that when you boot up the DVD, you choose "PCM Stereo" from the audio options so none of the sound will be inadvertantly dropped--which would happen if you chose Dolby EX, etc. You'll also enjoy the sound more.
One of the advantages to an A/V receiver is that it will automatically decode the optimal sound configuration for whatever you have. All you have to do, say, if you stick with a two-speaker stereo array, is program the A/V receiver to play back all DVDs using the PCM stereo option.
BTW, there is absolutely no reason to have both a CD player and DVD player in the same rig. DVD players will play CDs, and there is no significant audible difference between the two. In fact, I no longer recommend stand-alone CD players where a system will serve both audio and home theater needs. Why pay for two pieces of gear when you only need one? Food for thought.
Kindest regards,
Kevin Thanks,maybe I didn't explain my setup in more detail.I want to route my audio output from the TV to my preamps auxiliary still using the Dynaco amp it is a line output not a self contained amplifier in the TV.Second the reason I want to retain the Denon CD only player is because it is a 5 disc changer and while I most of the time listen to one CD at a time I sometimes like to add several and "shuffle" songs.Plus it has a volume control adjustable from the remote,the preamp and DVD player doesn't,Plus I may wind up buying a home -theater reciever ,you say there is little sonic difference between that and seperates but when I hook up my CD only player directly to the amp it sounds great,run through the preamp the soundstaging isn't as well defined so the preamp is coloring the sound and I have something wrong with the balance control.Maybe it is just a dirty contact in the switch but when I swing the balance completely to the left speaker the sound doesn't dissapear from the right and there is a rustling sound, even when I use the volume control it makes a crackling noise whenever I adjust it.Do you think the potenometers or something are just dirty?
Answer -
Dear Peter,
Okay, sorry, I didn't fully understand your configuration. Yes, you can route the "audio out" from your TV to the "AUX in" on your preamp. The TV signal is line level, so there's no compatability problem. (BTW, every TV has an amplifier for its speakers. Older TVs have fairly dinky ones, in the 3-5 watt range--just enough to drive TV speakers. The newer HDTV sets that come with outboard speakers have relatively beefier amplifiers in the 20-25 watt range. Yes, the audio output from the TV is a line level signal, but it's a weak signal coming from the TV's preamp.)
The reason the CD player sounds better directly through the amplifier (clever solution), is because there is no preamp to filter the sound. All components add their own brand of coloration--try as they might to claim that they don't, so it's not surprising that you get better results by bypassing the preamp.
And, yes, it sounds like the preamp's controls (volume and/or balance potentiometers or "pots") are dirty. Pop open the box and give it a good cleaning. The rustling and crackling should disappear. All components accumulate dust. It's a good practice to clean the insides thoroughly every 3-5 years. Prevents bigger problems down the road. BTW, don't use a household vacuum; too powerful. A low powered hand held vac is sufficient.
Kindest regards,
Kevin
Thanks.A tube amp tends to be on the laid back side musically,but I bet if I had a solid state or other amp with a bit more "zing" in the highs the preamp would sound good,should I use tuner lube that they sell at Radio Shack or WD40 as well or just vacuum ,I only have a shop vac?
Answer -
Dear Peter,
I would avoid harsh cleaners like WD40. In fact, I would avoid liquid cleaners altogether unless they have limited, specific application like "tuner lube". They have a tendency to flow into unwanted spaces--capillary action--and otherwise gum up the works.
Use a gentle vacuum. A shop vac is way too powerful. A hand-held, like a Black and Decker Dust Buster, on its lowest setting is preferable.
Oh the debate between the sounds of tube and solid state amplifiers. Tubes will give you a unique sound, and each tube amp has its unique sonic signature. Solid state amps tend not to impart so much coloration as tube amps. I don't know if a solid state amp would give you zingier highs like it would a deeper bass. I suggest that you try a couple out and see if you enjoy the difference.
BTW, the best integrated amp I've ever heard was the Luxman LV105u. It had four MOSFETs and two triodes in the output stage. Delivered unbelievable punch in both the high and low ends. It also had a "CD Direct" line level input which bypassed the tone controls, so CD playback was sublime. Sold it years ago, like an idiot, 'cos I needed the cash to trade up. Sigh. Would love to have it back. Awesome machine.
Kindest regards,
Kevin Ok,here is my theory based on the limited knowledge of audio I have,there are differences in amps.preamps,possibly cables DEPENDING on the resolution and efficency of the speakers especially.I am not justifying spending $200 on a pair of speaker cables or interconnects but when I owned the Magneplanars which were a ribbon transducer ? speaker I believe, a local dealer said that a low powered tube amp with a power hungry speaker like I had would not produce the best sound.On the other hand a dynamic efficent speaker like the Sonys I have now is probably a better choice so more power in the amp or a more efficent speaker for a lower power amp is what is often the best match.I saw a pair of Martin-logan electrostatics that retail for about $13000 at Tweeters I am sure with something as revealing as that a better cable might make a difference,I use my VCRs tuner for my TOshiba flat screen Tv and replacing the composite video cable that came with the VcR With a Monster Cable 1000.I notice a bit more color resolution and sharpness so replacing " in the box" cables with a better one might make a difference.I just want to test this further and go to Circut City or Best Buy and try one of the expensive Monster Interconnects to hear if it does make a difference ,If it doesn't I'll return it just want to experiment as I am not sure yet.Maybe I'll look for that Luxman used since you swear by it and it will eliminate an extra component in my system, haven't gotten around to cleaning the PS Audio preamp yet,the dirt may be affecting the sound a bit,you think?
AnswerDear Peter,
Your dealer was correct in one regard. Any electrostatic speaker, either the Maggies or the Martin Logans will render a more accurate sound with sufficient power. Yes, they are power hungry. Maggies, for example, have nominal 4-ohm impedance. I say "nominal" because impedance curves vary with the volume and dynamic requirements of the material. During actual playback impedance can fluctuate wildly from 16 ohms down to 2 ohms. The 4-ohm rating is the manufacturer's average. Martin Logan speakers, because they're hybrids, using both conventional cone and electrostatic drivers, use a lot of power. Martin Logan recommends 150-200 watts RMS per channel. I don't recall how much power the Dynaco 70 puts out, but I believe it's around 65-70 watts RMS per channel--not nearly enough to drive either the Maggies or the Martin Logans. Besides, IMHO $13,000 is way too much to spend on speakers.
That having been said, yes, it would seem that a far more efficient Sony is the way to go. Besides, you like their sound, right?
Re cables, I'll simply rest on what I wrote previously: there is no empirical evidence to support the notion that more expensive cables will give you a better sound. I don't doubt that you "heard" something, but the hoary road of audio is littered with folks who hear something better because it's more expensive; i.e., they've been conditioned to hear it because they've been told to. Sorry, no offense, but remember your dealer is in the business of selling stuff, the more expensive the better. Of course he's going to tell you the expensive wire "sounds" better than inexpensive wire. No mystery there.
Good luck finding the Luxman. It's about 15 years old now, and a rarity. For instance, a Google search turned up nothing as did an eBay inquiry.
Kindest regards,
Kevin
