QuestionQUESTION: Rowland- Welcome back, hope you had a good vacation! While you were out, I was able to get back at my mother-in-law's van issue: I tried your first suggestion of hooking my amp meter back up and start pulling fuses and noting what amount of change happened. However, I could not truly identify fuse #14 and #19. So I started pulling fuses and made note of what fuse name (per the relay center cover). This is what I got- everything in place = 0.88A draw. Not touching anything, 4 min later draw drops to 0.03A. 4 min later, back to 0.88A. Pulled Haz/Trn fuse = 0.02A draw. Switched to mA scale on meter- reads 19.88mA. Pulled a non-labeled 20A fuse in about the location of what you decsribed fuse #14 to be and meter went blank for 1 sec then back to 19.88mA. Systematically pulled fuses with no change to draw until Fuel Pump fuse = 18.52mA. ABS module fuse = 18.16mA; BCM fuse = 16.35mA; ABS Pump = 16.29mA; IOD = 2.91mA.
Next I tried you suggestion above and looked to lights on. This van does not have a under-hood light nor a glovebox light. So I went to removing all of the interior courtesy lights as well as the turn/hazard lamps. No change in the draw. So, back to you for anymore ideas.
Now, this van have the remote control automatic opening/closing slider doors and rear hatch. Is it possible that one of these functions could be drawing through the remote receiver/transmitter somehow? Or are these circuits completly separate from any of the circuts of the fuses I pulled and saw the amp draw drop? Thanks again for your help with this!
ANSWER: Hi Keith,
All the readings except of course the 0.88A are normal. The question in my mind, since all the other readings with one at a time pull of fuses was under 25mA, was the overall draw just before pulling each of the fuses that you pulled 0.88A and if not what was it? All the diagnoses have to be between an existing 0.88A reading so as to find out what is 'on' when the reading is 0.88A.
If you just watch the reading with everything buttoned does it just keep cycling every 4 minutes ad infinitum? If so, then you just have to pull all the fuses and circuit breakers, one at a time, when the reading is 0.88. If it doesn't drop then immediately replace, and go to the next fuse/breaker; when you find one that causes a big drop then wait for 4 minutes to be sure it doesn't go back to 0.88A reading even though you have the fuse/breaker out.
That is the only way to be sure you have pulled the fuse on the troubled circuit when you have this up/down every 4 minute behavior. That cycling is generally a device with a memory that has a time out delay but for some reason it is not staying timed out. But what is it????
Roland
QUESTION: Roland- I did not stick with it to see if the 0.88A to 0.03A cycling kept going.
The info above on the amp drops were pulling the fuses and leaving them out. So I started with the Haz fuse and then pulled the others in the order I listed them and left them out. So to answer your question as to which has the most affect, that would still be the haz fuse and the IOD. I thought that since we already determined that the haz fuse had the largest drop, but with it out, there was still too high of a amp draw, I thought I would see what all fuses needed to be pulled to get down to the 6 mA draw that you stated was where it should be. I guess at this point, please direct me as to what should be checked next? Hook the ampmeter back up and watch for the 4 min. cycling with each fuse pull? Or focus on that Haz fuse circuit?
ANSWER: First let me copy in this discussion from the very beginning:
QUESTION: Rowland- I'm trying to help out my mother-in-law with her 2006 Chrysler T&C mini van. She is having a problem with the battery going dead and it not starting. The battery is not very old and I have one of those carbon-pile battery testers and it checks out OK. I also cleaned all battery connections. Finally I pulled the negitive cable and put a digital ampmeter between the cable and the negative post and found there is a 1.1A draw with everything shut-off. I then started pulling fuses and circuit breakers in the under hood fuse & relay center and found when I pulled the hazard/turn 20A fuse, the draw dropped to 0.21A. If memory serves me, a long time ago I was told that 0.6A was the max draw on a battery, anything over that an if a vehicle sits for more than a day, the battery can go flat. So, I'm assuming there is an issue in the turn/tail/hazard circuit. Now, I know that electrical problems take time and circut tracing to figure the problem out and I don't have the time to do that for my mother-in-law due to my work schedule. So, what I want to ask of you is are there any "know" or "common" issues in this circut that I could check for possible quick fixes? Oh, yeah, this van is equipped with the power sliding doors and rear hatch that when in operation, the hazard flash. Thank you for any information you can offer me.
ANSWER: Hi Keith,
If the fuse you speak of is #14 at the front of the box, then that indeed is the ignition off draw fuse whose purpose is to power everything that is needed when the ignition is nonetheless off. Here are the possible items:
dvd/cd changer, hands off module
radio
sentry key immobilizer module
auto temp control for AC/heater
body computer (supplies power for the hazards/turns,interior lights)
overhead console
adjustable pedal switch
horn relay
park lamp relay
wiper relay
I wonder if a hidden light such as the glove box or underhood might be on. Other than that you could try removing the relays and plugs to those device which are easily accessible one at a time to see if you can drop the current draw of course with #14 in place.
Please let me know if you find the cause.
Roland
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Roland- Thanks for getting back with me on this so quickly. No, it is not the draw-off fuse. The fuse I am refering to is labled "HAZ/FLAS" on the relay center. It is located towards the battery between two of the larger relays. Sorry, I would have gotten the fuse number for you last night, but could not make it over to my mother-in-laws to do so. Otherwise, I like your thinking on the possible " hidden light on" theory. let me know what you come up with. Thanks- Keith
ANSWER: Hi Keith,
Then that is fuse #24 and it powers one segment (hazard function) of the body computer (pin #2 of plug #1), and part of the instrument cluster (gauges and warning lights). I don't think it powers the turn/tail signals. You can try to figure out which by going under the dash on the left side (remove under panel silencer and knee blocker) and that will give you a good view of the body computer which has 4 plugs on its bottom. Plug 1 is the smallest of the four plugs and only 3 or 4 wires in use. Adjacent to the body computer also on the left side is a rectangular large disconnect with approximately 76 wires, and when you open that it will disconnect the fuse output wire that goes to the instrument cluster. So see which of those causes the current through fuse 24 to drop as you have measured. I don't show the details of the hazard function of the body computer but it obviously does power the hazard lights off of that fuse. Let me know what you find and perhaps we can narrow this further. The ignition off draw should be about 25 mA with no lights on, and all timed out systems off (which might take about 15 minutes). Even when you fix the #24 problem there appears to still be excess IOD.
Roland
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Rowland- I finally was able to get my mother-in-law's schedule and mine together this past week-end. I set up my amp meter and disconnected the 76-pin connector; nothing, same draw. I then unplugged the 4-wire connector on the body computer and the draw dropped to 0A. I reconnected the 4-wire back into the body computer and the draw was back. Do you have any direction as to what I could check next to determine what through the body computer is causing the draw?
Answer:
Hi Keith,
We know that there is too much draw on fuse 24 (hazards) which supplies pin 2 on the 6-pin/4-wire plug at the pcm. So we have to figure out why that is the case.
We also need to find another current draw related to the bcm to know how to get this down to around 25 mA. But there are 3 other current supplies to the BCM:
Unplugging C1 as you did disconnects the draw on fuse 24 (hazard), and also disconnects the draw on fuse 19 at pin 5, a non-specific current supply to the bcm. I would suggest that you see what the resistance to ground is shown at both pin 2 and pin 5 of that socket of the bcm. Or even better see what happens to the overall current draw at the battery when you remove fuse 19 and then remove fuse 24.
Then on bcm plug C2 (34-pin black/green) pin 5 draws current from the ignition switch but only when the key is in the run/start so that is not a problem with the battery draw down.
Pin 7 of C2 draws on fuse 14 (IOD,powers all system that are needed when the ignition is off) so either see that that pin' resistance to ground is on the socket-side or better see what the overall current draw is when you remove fuse 14.
So basically: Let us see how much of the overdraw is being sucked individually through fuses 14, 19 and 24 from the battery when the ignition is off.
Roland
Question:
Roland- for some reason the "Ask a follow-up" was not on the last post, so hence, the new question: my mother-in-law's van's fuse and relay center is not labeled by numbers in either the center or the owner's manual. Could you please point me to where I could find the numbering on the web or if you could describe it to me? Likewise, could you do the same for the pin locations on the BCM connectors? Once I have that, I might be able to get ahold of the van again this coming week-end and I'll do the resistance checks and get back with you. Thanks
ANSWER: Hi Keith,
I am suspecting that this may have something to do with the lighting associated with the hazard/turn signal flashing system. The draw on 24 as well as the body computer 'driving' those lights and those are used also for the anti-theft alarming function...all mediated thru the bcm and are presumably associated with a function that is needed when the ignition is off points somehow to a short circuit with the lighting circuits. Try turning on the hazard lights (there is a instrument panel switch bank) and see if those are functioning properly. Then test the vehicle theft security system to see if it's flashing lights/horn blowing is functioning properly when you set off the alarm. Also check for the function of all the turn signal lights. Check for any courtesy lights that might be 'on' that are not obvious such as glove compartment,underhood lights. In fact I would check all the courtesy lights and individual switched lights as there may be one that has a defective bulb which shorts the 12v to ground but without putting out any light. Thus if left 'on' it is a continuing drain on the system without giving itself away.
There are a long list of courtesy devices powered out of the bcm and I may have to list all of them and have you go find them to see if they are 'on' or shorted 'on'. I listed some of them earlier.
Roland
Then then the subsequent exchange:
QUESTION: Rowland- Welcome back, hope you had a good vacation! While you were out, I was able to get back at my mother-in-law's van issue: I tried your first suggestion of hooking my amp meter back up and start pulling fuses and noting what amount of change happened. However, I could not truly identify fuse #14 and #19. So I started pulling fuses and made note of what fuse name (per the relay center cover). This is what I got- everything in place = 0.88A draw. Not touching anything, 4 min later draw drops to 0.03A. 4 min later, back to 0.88A. Pulled Haz/Trn fuse = 0.02A draw. Switched to mA scale on meter- reads 19.88mA. Pulled a non-labeled 20A fuse in about the location of what you decsribed fuse #14 to be and meter went blank for 1 sec then back to 19.88mA. Systematically pulled fuses with no change to draw until Fuel Pump fuse = 18.52mA. ABS module fuse = 18.16mA; BCM fuse = 16.35mA; ABS Pump = 16.29mA; IOD = 2.91mA.
Next I tried you suggestion above and looked to lights on. This van does not have a under-hood light nor a glovebox light. So I went to removing all of the interior courtesy lights as well as the turn/hazard lamps. No change in the draw. So, back to you for anymore ideas.
Now, this van have the remote control automatic opening/closing slider doors and rear hatch. Is it possible that one of these functions could be drawing through the remote receiver/transmitter somehow? Or are these circuits completly separate from any of the circuts of the fuses I pulled and saw the amp draw drop? Thanks again for your help with this!
ANSWER: Hi Keith,
All the readings except of course the 0.88A are normal. The question in my mind, since all the other readings with one at a time pull of fuses was under 25mA, was the overall draw just before pulling each of the fuses that you pulled 0.88A and if not what was it? All the diagnoses have to be between an existing 0.88A reading so as to find out what is 'on' when the reading is 0.88A.
If you just watch the reading with everything buttoned does it just keep cycling every 4 minutes ad infinitum? If so, then you just have to pull all the fuses and circuit breakers, one at a time, when the reading is 0.88. If it doesn't drop then immediately replace, and go to the next fuse/breaker; when you find one that causes a big drop then wait for 4 minutes to be sure it doesn't go back to 0.88A reading even though you have the fuse/breaker out.
That is the only way to be sure you have pulled the fuse on the troubled circuit when you have this up/down every 4 minute behavior. That cycling is generally a device with a memory that has a time out delay but for some reason it is not staying timed out. But what is it????
Roland
QUESTION: Roland- I did not stick with it to see if the 0.88A to 0.03A cycling kept going.
The info above on the amp drops were pulling the fuses and leaving them out. So I started with the Haz fuse and then pulled the others in the order I listed them and left them out. So to answer your question as to which has the most affect, that would still be the haz fuse and the IOD. I thought that since we already determined that the haz fuse had the largest drop, but with it out, there was still too high of a amp draw, I thought I would see what all fuses needed to be pulled to get down to the 6 mA draw that you stated was where it should be. I guess at this point, please direct me as to what should be checked next? Hook the ampmeter back up and watch for the 4 min. cycling with each fuse pull? Or focus on that Haz fuse circuit?
Answer:
I went through all our earlier correspondence and found that there were two of my responses where I asked you to do things/make measurements that I didn't get a response from you about:
"We know that there is too much draw on fuse 24 (hazards) which supplies pin 2 on the 6-pin/4-wire plug at the pcm. So we have to figure out why that is the case.
We also need to find another current draw related to the bcm to know how to get this down to around 25 mA. But there are 3 other current supplies to the BCM:
Unplugging C1 as you did disconnects the draw on fuse 24 (hazard), and also disconnects the draw on fuse 19 at pin 5, a non-specific current supply to the bcm. I would suggest that you see what the resistance to ground is shown at both pin 2 and pin 5 of that socket of the bcm. Or even better see what happens to the overall current draw at the battery when you remove fuse 19 and then remove fuse 24.
Then on bcm plug C2 (34-pin black/green) pin 5 draws current from the ignition switch but only when the key is in the run/start so that is not a problem with the battery draw down.
Pin 7 of C2 draws on fuse 14 (IOD,powers all system that are needed when the ignition is off) so either see that that pin' resistance to ground is on the socket-side or better see what the overall current draw is when you remove fuse 14.
So basically: Let us see how much of the overdraw is being sucked individually through fuses 14, 19 and 24 from the battery when the ignition is off."
AND
"I am suspecting that this may have something to do with the lighting associated with the hazard/turn signal flashing system. The draw on 24 as well as the body computer 'driving' those lights and those are used also for the anti-theft alarming function...all mediated thru the bcm and are presumably associated with a function that is needed when the ignition is off points somehow to a short circuit with the lighting circuits. Try turning on the hazard lights (there is a instrument panel switch bank) and see if those are functioning properly. Then test the vehicle theft security system to see if it's flashing lights/horn blowing is functioning properly when you set off the alarm. Also check for the function of all the turn signal lights. Check for any courtesy lights that might be 'on' that are not obvious such as glove compartment,underhood lights. In fact I would check all the courtesy lights and individual switched lights as there may be one that has a defective bulb which shorts the 12v to ground but without putting out any light. Thus if left 'on' it is a continuing drain on the system without giving itself away.
There are a long list of courtesy devices powered out of the bcm and I may have to list all of them and have you go find them to see if they are 'on' or shorted 'on'. I listed some of them earlier."
So at this point may I ask you to follow the instructions in the above two answers and see what you learn from doing those? I believe we will get a handle on this if we keep working methodically.
Roland
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Roland- thanks for the repeat of the info and putting it all in one spot again. I don't know why, but about every-other exchange we have, the site does not let me reply to your message, and thus I started a whole different question.
Anyway, for your first request above- I need to try and determine which fuse is your referenced #19 and #14. Like I said previously, the underhood fuse and relay center is not labeled by number, only names in the diagram on the underside of the cover. Also, if you could point me at a picture or diagram of the BCM connectors to identify the pin locations so I can check the resistance to ground.
As for the second part above, I've chased those idea's already. I had the ampmeter hooked up with everything off, and when through the interior and removed each light bulb, one at a time and noted any changes on the ampmeter. I found nothing. I then moved outside and did the same with all turn/brake/marker lamps. Again, no change on the ampmeter. I checked the operation of all turn/hazard lights, as well as the alarm and automatic door functions. Everything seems to be operating fine. Also, I found that this van does not have a glovebox light nor a underhood light. So the only courtesy type lights are just the interior lamps. So, for this I think we may be down to that list of courtesy devices powered out of the BCM.
Again, thank you for digging into this with me and being patient with my sporadic posting as well as infrequent availability to work on the van.
AnswerHi Keith,
Fuse #14 (20 amp,small) is in the front corner of the box next to an unused "spare relay" socket. Fuse 19 (40 amp, large) is the second fuse just behind the autoshutdown relay (the smaller fuse 16 is directly behind the asd relay.
The bcm's plugs total to 5, located near the left side cowl (kick) panel, and they are numbered 1 to 5 in vertical descending order. If you look closely at eack of the plugs where the wires are attached you will see that each wire's socket has a number etched into the plastic. Each plug has 34 pins, and they are numbered crosswise from 1 to 9 etc. The 2,3,4 plugs are green, white, and gray in color which you will see when you remove the plugs from their sockets. The 1 plug is small, and plug 5 is black and no wires on it are of interest.
If you haven't noticed any faults in the lighting, then let us proceed via the amp meter readings to narrow down which fuse is drawing the major current excess.
Roland
PS Please feel free to rate my answer, once again.
