QuestionHi Roland,
Thank you so much for all of your help thus far! I am replying to your last answer which I have copied and pasted below (hope this makes it easier for you!)
The starter does jump by using a jumper from the RED Wire's Post to the Brown Wire. The starter relays front pin is showing 12v so I assume it is either the Brown Wire... is flaky as you suggest or the engine ground is bad. So now I am forced to ask; how do I run this brown wire to find its flaky spot? It seems to be wrapped in this weather worn seath wrapped throughout the motor. Is there a way to run a new one and by pass that one? And could I have shorted out the Engine Ground Wire... I ask this only because the ground is nice and snug to it's bolt on engine, has corrosion (but looks to be as old as the van itself.)And the clamp at the battery looks good, but is it a possibility that I shorted something on it when I was replacing fans so that it may need replaced? But I still only hear the click of the starter relay (and I have several extras, all of which click) when I try to start the motor. :(
Cherry
<<<<<<<<<<QUESTION: Roland,
Have now got a brand new starter installed complete with spacers and still no crank or start. (The relays were all replaced in the previous weeks and) I have had battery checked again and it is putting out 12.5 volts. The starter still has no click when we turn the key to the on position all we are hearing is a clicking from the starter relay and the lights inside the van still come on. We also tried starting in R, and D but nothing. The ground wire seems to be good, showing no corrosion or looseness. I am perplexed lol. Thanks again for your help.
Cherry
Answer: Hi Cherry,
OK, lets start and go backwards. Because you know how the starter is wired up, try jumping a wire from the post where the brown wire attaches to the starter motor over to the fat red wire where it attaches to the starter motor nearby . Be very careful as you are dealing directly with the battery. So attach the wire first to the brown wire's post (remove the brown wire first from the post so you have a place to attach the jumper), then merely touch the other end of the the jumper to the fat red wire's post. The starter should respond instantly. In not, then either the fat red wire is not well-connected to the battery, the battery - post clamp or its wires to the chassis are not well connected, the engine ground wire to the - clamp is bad, or the starter motor is no good.
If the starter motor does respond, and you say that when you try the key in the 'start' position and that the start relay clicks, and the front pin of the starter relay shows 12v at all times, and you have a new starter relay, then the brown wire is flaky. If any of the other things aren't as I described then let me know.
That is the basics of the starter circuit.
Roland >>>>>>
RESPONSE 9/14/2011
Roland,
ANSWER: Hi Cherry,
The fact that the jump from the fat red to the brown causes the motor to respond corroborates that there is no problem with the ground wire of the motor (I assume if you held the jump a little longer than a 'touch' that it would actually go on cranking the engine over). So because you do have 12v on the front pin of the relay socket, the next thing to try is to remove the relay and do a jump from that front pin of the socket to the rear pin of the socket (which is attached to the brown wire) which replicates the relay's function. If that causes the starter to operate then the problem has to be the relay (which is either not clicking or has bad internal contacts) OR that other clicking going on is dragging down the voltage on the system.
On the relay, you are certain that it is indeed clicking? And might you try locating other things that click at the same time? I don't see anything else that normally should do that, so it is possible that the other clicks are degrading the operating voltage of the system so that something quite a bit less than 12v is actually getting to the starter on the brown wire. If the jump across the socket doesn't work, then it is the brown wire at fault.
On the brown wire, I don't have a detailed picture of how it gets out of the power box and down to the starter motor so you would need to open up the power box to find out, or try flexing the main cabling that goes between them the socket jump still in place until you locate a spot which seems to re-establish the normal function. That would be where you could open up the cable and affect a repair of the brown wire.
I don't know which will be the answer: brown wire 'open', something else dragging down the voltage, relay not actually closing/bad points, but we are down toward the end of this process.
Roland
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Roland,
Jumping the front socket to the rear socket does cause starter to turn but no start! But I have tried 3 New relays and still have click...but at closer range it doesnt seem to be at the relay but near it...... Jeez
The only other thing that I hear is a sound inside the van that sounds sorta like the vents opening (and like its coming from inside the dash pocket).... hard to explain... we have everything off in the van as far as accessories, air/heat... lights... I am headed out with you in tow! to begin working my way throug this... and backwards! I will get back with you with definates in a few! Thanks so Much for all of your help!
Determined to fix this thing!
Cherry
ANSWER: If the jump from front to back across the starter relay socket causes the starter motor to turn over then the brown wire is fine.
The problem has to be the relay, something else dragging down the voltage on the relay that actuates it (that is the voltage between the inboard and outboar pins of the socket, or the entire system voltage being too low when you activate the key. See what the voltage reads between the outboard pin of the relay socket and the inboard pin when you try the Starter position of the key. It should read the full battery voltage. Is your battery perhaps discharged too much so the voltage is lower than needed to activate the relay and starter motor simultaneously? You could try charging the battery at this point as it it probably run down. Do you have a charger or another vehicle that can do a jump from battery to battery?
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Roland,
So we took the New... dead battery to the auto parts store and got it charged. Retreived it 2-3 hours later, put back on van and tried to start.. CLICK... but this time the speed ometor pegged out to the 120 mph side. but no crank and no start. Also replaced the starter relay agian... I know that you are most likely tired of handing out your helpful tips by now but I hope you can lead me to my next step! Look forward to your answer!
Cherry
AnswerHi Cherry
Do you have a volt-ohm meter?
Did you make any of the voltage measurements I last suggested?
Does the starter motor still run when you jump from the front pin to the rear pin of the socket?
Does the starter relay click when you try the key? Are you sure it is clicking? Does 12V appear on the brown wire at the motor when you try the start position with the key?
Am I confusing 'no starter' e.g. no action of starter motor with 'no start' e.g. starter motor works but engine won't catch?
I am at a loss because you say that you can get the starter to run by jumping the relay socket pins, and you say the relay clicks, and you say you have a new relay. It just doesn't add up. One of those 3 situations is not happening when you put it all back together but which?
Maybe the relay isn't actually clicking, have you felt it with your fingers?
I can't offer any other ideas until we find something doesn't add up here.
Roland
PS The relay (when it clicks) does exactly the same thing as you do when you jump from the front to the rear pin of the relay socket. So either the relay isn't clicking or effectively clicking (e.g. closing the switch between the front and rear pins) or 12v is nonetheless not appearing on the brown wire at the starter motor. Could the voltage be less than 12v? That is why I can't explain why you can't get starter motor action via the relay/ignition switch approach.
