QuestionHello, I checked the fuel pressure today, i put the guage on the line just before it enters the rail, seemed like an easy place, someone even said i could put it on the filter also. Not sure if it was the right psi guage, found it in my garage.
When i started the car up the pressure shot up to 50 psi, i let it idel a bit and it stayed at 50, i reved the car a few times and each time i reved it the pressure would go a little above 50, and when i took my foot of the gas it would return to 50. At some point when i stepped on the gas the pressure dropped to 25 psi, now the car idels at 25 and sound a bit hesitent. Now when i reved the car the psi drop to 20, and would begin to sutter and sputter, when i took my foot off the gas the psi rose back to 25, and the sputtering would stop. After doing this a few times the psi dropped to 15 the engine would shake, and struggle to keep going, stepped on the gas again and it went down to 10, then i would hear a loud sucking sound coming from the air intake area and the engine died.
At this point i could start the engine back up again, and the psi shot back to 50, and i could do the whole thing over again.
During this whole time i was hearing that hissing/screeching sound coming from the gas tank.
It seems like it will run all day if i just let it idel.
Also during the past day i put on a new fuel filter, checked all the lines again for leaks, kinks, and blockage. I ran compressed air though the rubber lines. I removed the gas cap to see if the car would run better, it did not. I also removed the E.G.R. valve it had some black ash and some rust in it and the lines on it, i cleaned it and and shook out the stuff inside, then put it back on, didn't change it anyway how the can ran.
Also what kind of fuel management does the car use? Is it speed density,
mass air flow or air vane?
LMK what i should do next.
Dan
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Could you tell me where the port of the fuel rail is? Also where is the pressure regulator at, and what does it look like?
If i have to replace this what am i looking at, cost and ammount of work, dropping the tank was not easy, i don't know if i want to remove many parts from the engine.
Is the regulater that little rubber black ovel shaped thing on the passenger side, looks like some kind of a filter, with two lines going through it to the engine.
Is the port fuel rail, the top line the goes into the top of the fuel tank, into a little green plastic piece, that seems to let the fuel drop back into the tank?
The hissing seems to be coming from the tank on the drivers side, thought it was the exaust at first, has leek sound, but when i crawled under the car it was coming from the tank.
Before the car begins to die out when i step on the gas, the pedel has this slight resistance feeling, like i'm pressing air.
Dan
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Hi, Roland
I took some time off from working on the Le Baron, i went ahead and replaced the pump, i checked the connetion from the relay to pump, i hooked up a motor from a toy race car instead of the black light, and it was getting power, then i pluged the connection back into the pump, and of course it didn't power up, and the car didn't start.
So i dropped the tank and put in another pump, i bought a used one from a junk yard, they tested it there and it powered up.
Oh and when i took the old pump out, i hooked it up to a battery and it started to work again, i don't know if moving it around and taking it out of the tank caused it to work correct again, but i couldn't use it anyways because i damaged it taking it out, it was rusted to the tank, so bent it up a bit and both metal lines the run out of the pump are broke, but the motor still works though.
Anyways i put in the new pump, hooked up all three lines to the pump and tank, pluged it in along with the gas gauge, and the car started up. The car ran fine for a day, then it started to die out, seems like it was starving for gas and the car would stall. The car starts up everytime, i can give it some gas but within a few seconds the car dies out again. The car seem to run when i have it ideling, but dies out when i give it gas and drive it.
Also i hear a hissing sound coming from the gas tank. I switched the pump relay again to see if that made a difference, but it didn't.
I guess the junk yard sold me a bad pump, so they are going to test it out when i return it, they give 30 days.
Don't know what else it could be, maybe i should buy a volt meter, and test the pump and the line from the relay again.
Maybe i got some dirt or rust in the tank, not sure if that will cause this.
LMK what you think, BTW do you know somewhere i can chat with some fuel system experts?
Dan
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Hi, i own a 1994 Le Baron, i have had it for a week, and it has ran fine with no problems, it has 179,000 mile, and i don't know the history of the car, it has about 8-12 reports with carfax and other auto history sites.
Today the car will not start. It seems to have full power everything works, the engine turns over, but does not seem to be getting fuel.
I think it might be a bad fuel pump, loose connetion, clogged fuel line, etc.
What do you think could be the most likly problem?
Also the car does not leak anything, and it was burning some oil, but i added no smoke and that has stopped it.
Answer -
Hi Dan
It is always good to begin a no start situation by checking for spark. Just pull a plug wire off (grasp the insulator and twist, don't pull on the wire). Then insert a spare plug in the plug wire socket and ground the shell of the plug while a helper tries the starter for 5 seconds. (If you don't have a spare spark plug just take a plastic handled phillips head screwdriver and insert it in the plug soket instead, and then hold the insulated handle of the screwdriver so that the metal shaft is 1/4" from the cylinder head while a helper cranks for 5 seconds. See for how long you get a spark to jump from the shaft to ground.) If you get spark for a full 5 seconds then you do need to check the fuel system. If not, then does the spark last for 1-2 seconds, or is there no spark at all? If for just 1-2 seconds then you need to readout the computer for fault codes:
The most useful thing to do would be to try to get the fault codes that are likely stored in the engine controller memory to readout. Try using the ignition key: turn it "on-off-on-off-on" and leave it "on" (doing this quickly, no longer than 5 seconds). Then watch the 'check engine' light to begin flashing, then pause, flashing, pause, etc. Count the number of flashes before each pause and keep track of the numbers. Repeat the readout and verify the counts are correct. Then group them in pairs in the order that they came out, thus forming two digit numbers. You may notice that the pause is shorter between the digits of a given number, and longer between the numbers themselves. Then send me a 'follow-up' question telling me the results of your readout. By the way, 55 will be the last number (two groups of 5 flashes each) and that is the code for "end of readout".
If you get no spark at all then we need to check the ASD relay as possibly bad.
So write back with the results of your testing.
Roland
Hi, and thanks for the help Roland.
I ended up taking the car to a garage last night. I called this morning and i asked if they can just look at the car and tell me whats wrong with it, and not to fix anything, i also told them what i think might be wrong with it. They said it will be a day before they even look at it. Then about a half an hour later i get a call from on of the techs, saying he gave it a diagnostic. He said it needs a fuel pump, bracket assembly, fuel filter, and lock ring.
He checked the pump pressure, power and ground to fuel pump, a diagnosis of the ignition system and condition of plugs, wires, cap and rotor.
This is what he claimed was wrong with the car, and the total would be $560.00, he said the pump alone would cost $200.00, i said what if i bring in my own pump, and he said they can't do that here. I said i really don't want to get all this fixed, the car is not worth it. He said he can't do anything to it now anyways, until he orders parts on monday, he said to think about it.
So i went down there this evening, to check on the fuses and relay switch, which i had forgotten about.
I brought my spare car, and the first thing i do is start the car, and it starts right up. I even started it up several times after that. I even heard the fuel pump power up, which didn't yesterday, i think i forgot to mention that, also the car is a 93 not a 94, sorry about that.
So maybe it was some condinsation in the distribter?
I didn't have a good feeling about what i was being told in the first place now this may confirm that.
This late in the day there is only a kid working there, so tell him what happened and i ask for my keys, he gives my a statement for labor and diagnosis for $70.00, i then ask for a copy of, or even to see the diagnostic print out, but he cannot provide that for me, so i just leave a tell him i'll call in the morning.
I feel that i am being set up, the tech must have know that the car started, maybe he didn't even give the car a diagnostic? How should i approach this in the morning? Should i take the car somewhere else, don't say what could be wrong with it and get a diagnostic to prove what he thought was wrong?
I realize this is not what you are expecting, again sorry.
I checked the ignition codes and i only get 55, nothing more. Should i even bother with checking the spark right now?
Thanks for the help, and LMK what i should do next.
-Dan
Answer -
Hi Dan,
No there is no need to check for spark if the car will start up. The fact that you couldn't hear the fuel pump tick over for a second or so (which is what it should do when you turn the key to run without going the rest of the way to starter) yesterday probably means there was a poor connection at the pump or that the fuel pump relay or the ASD relay was flakey.
I doubt though that you will be able to get the car back from the shop without paying them something. There is not necessarily going to be a hard copy printout from the code reader, whatever kind was used, because it may or may not have a printout. So my inclination is to note that they called back in 1/2 hour, and wouldn't that suggest maybe a lesser charge than $70, and see if you can get the charge reduced; but in the end it is going to have to resolved between you and the shop as far as that goes. I wouldn't spend any more effort proving they were inept by going elsewhere, if they were, that will just lead to more cost and conflict in all likelihood.
What you might want to do is use the car very locally for a while and let it prove itself to you as to reliability and when and if it dies and refuses to start again then do the spark test and code readout. Also having a simple volt-ohm meter in the vicinity would be good, or even just a neon 12v glow light to test for voltage and a few tools on board would be good, and a spare spark plug (to do the spark test a little more easily) would be helpful.
I hear you about not wanting to invest money (labor) and there is no reason why that has to happen. Just stay in touch and I can work you through a 'no start' in all likelihood.
I would suggest too that instead of calling that you go to the shop first thing and work it out in person. Hopefully the car will start so you can drive it out of there and be free to use your options. That way they will not have a chance to make it undriveable if that is their inclination.
Roland
P.S. The question about condensation in the distributor is not so relevant with the solid state sensor that is now used therein. Though it is possible that the sensor is going bad which would produce a stall, but also should produce a code 11 or a code 54. By the way, I assume that you have the 3.L v-6 with the electronic transaxle, correct?
Hello again
I did i mention that i have the car? I meant to say i took my spare keys, then when the car started up, i told the kid working, that the cars runs, there is nothing wrong with it, it doesn't need these repairs, and that i want my other key, which he gave me along with a statement, which has the $70 labor fee.
I'm sure the tech will call tomorrow upset that i took the car. What would be the best thing i can say, to let him know that he tried to scam me, and i know it, and his diagnosis was wrong, the car does not need the repairs that he suggests?
I have been driving to car around tonight and so far so good, although i don't hear the fuel pump everytime, but it starts right up. I do feel nervious about going somewhere, and turning the car off, only to have the pump not start, or power up.
Can you go into a little more detail about the volt metor, neon light, and checking for spark. I really haven't doen this before.
And as for the relay, should i just replace that since i already have the part, it was only $10.00, or is there a way to see if the one in the car is going bad? Or even clean it up? BTW i guess its in the master fuse box, where would that be at, i'am not sure where to look in a Chrysler.
You think i should drop the tank and tighten the connection to the fuel pump, and at the other end? Maybe just replace it? Or am i not at that point yet?
Oh and it is the 3.0 v6, not sure about the electronic transaxle, i don't have a manual for the car, i have just about every other insert from the car dating back to 93, but no manual. It does sound like an electronic transaxle when i step on the gas.
Again thanks for the help
-Dan
Answer -
Hi Dan,
I would just say that because the car seems to have an intermittant no start you want to wait until it refuses to start and you have the opportunity to do some self-testing at that time to really nail down why it isn't starting. And then ask how much time he spent on the car and the hourly rate and see if that matches with the time frame that you believe is correct and whether there is an hourly rate posted or stated to you. Then bargain from there. I guess unless the keys that he is holding are worth $70 and he insists on $70 that you can refuse to pay and see what he can do about it. Ideally you can reach a mutually satisfactory agreement where you will pay him something similar to the value of the keys and he will get from you something similar to the amount of time honestly spent on the analysis.
The spark test just involves removing a spark plug wire via the insulated rubber cap on the top of one of the plugs (as I said don't pull on the wire but rather twist off the rubber cap that is actually clinging to the spark plug). If you have a new spark plug that is the same as the one called for that engine (RN11YC4 or BPR5ES11) just put it in the rubber cap and then hold the threaded outer shell of the plug against a clean metal surface on the engine while a helper tries to start it. Just watch for a spark to jump the gap.
The voltmeter will be useful to tell you at each point of interest whether or not you have 12V between that point and any shiney metal surface on the engine or body which is where you would touch the other wire of the meter (or glow light). The glow light is just a neon tube that has two leads and does the same thing, only it costs a couple of dollars.
The fuel pump relay is in a thin rectangular box under the hood on the driver's side, third one from the outside end of the box. Try tapping on it if the fuel pump seems not to work; then try replacing it if that doesn't get the fuel pump to work. I can tell you about wires to check by color at a later time if necessary. The connections in question would be the dark green/black wire at the pump and at the relay (which if both have 12V on it should cause the tank to run, but note that it will only have that for about a second when you turn on the car to run but don't start it, so you will need a helper to operate the key; then during cranking the wire should show 12v again and stay until until you stop cranking or stay if the engine catches and runs); and the plain black wire on the pump which should be grounded (meaning 0 ohm resistance reading between it and any shiney metal part on the body (in fact that wire should go to a screw nearby that is at a body screw hole). Same with the pump itself, I would check the wires at the pump which you don't have to drop to get to them. Replacing the pump does involve at least lowering if not dropping the tank.
It the car sat for a while before you bought it, this problem may go away with "exercise".
Roland
Hi, and thanks again.
As for the box, do you mean the one next to the battery? Its the only one i see anyways, i could not get that open. I took a pic of it, just to be sure, you can find it at the link below. Also i have a few other pics of relays on the drivers side and, far on the other side, mounted on the side of the car.
http://ru486.homestead.com/files/box.jpg
http://ru486.homestead.com/files/2.jpg
http://ru486.homestead.com/files/3.jpg
Oh and the garage doesn't even have my keys, i got those yesterday from the kid working there. They did call today and leave me a messsage, telling me what they did, and that it was an hour of labor. So i will go down there this afternoon and see what i can do. I really don't have a good feeling about it. I'm sure they are going to say that the diagnostic showed this, and it doesn't lie, and the car needs these repairs.
BTW the fuel pump didn't start late last night, then i started to play around with the connections, the relay's and messed around with that box, and the car started right up. I think the car was sitting around for a while, atleast a year, because it needs an oil change next month.
-Dan
Answer -
Hi Dan,
Yes the long narrow box is the power distribution center that contains the fuel pump relay. It is the third relay from the right hand end when you view the open box from the side of the car where the relays are seen as in a row across the rear of the box.
So let me know what happened with the shop and whether you are having a continuing problem or not.
Roland
Hello Roland
Things didn't go well at the shop. First of all the owner is family member of a friend of mine, this is why i went there in the first place and its the thrid time i been there. The owner left a friendly message of my machine this morning, telling me what the charges were for. Then my friend calls me and tells me the owner is pissed off, and is going to call the cops on me if i don't pay up, don't know if they can really do that. He didn't hear this from him, but through his mother. I went down to the station twice and none of them were there, the owner or this mechanic that called me the day before. The kid working there could not call the owner. I could have left him some money or none at all, but i paid it, the fact that i am friends with a family member, could lead to problems, besides they know where i live, and i don't want to take the chance of getting smashed windows, or slashed tires. It just would have been a fight all the way if i didn't pay, and they would have teamed up on me. Its not like i don't know them and they don't know me, so i couldn't tell them to shove it. I can go down there when they are around and try to get some money back, but that would be a waste of time. I feel that he was holding a grudge against me, because last time i had work done there he wanted to do all this stuff to my car and i wouldn't let him, and maybe he felt this time would be payback, and he would get me for quite a bit of money. I'm sure they are all upset that i took my car off their lot before they had a chance to do anything to it.
So i told the kid working there and my friend, how i feel about this, and what this mechanic tried to pull. Hope they enjoy the $70.00 i'll never be back there again. I might just report them to the BBB. Do you have any ideas?
As for the car i drove it around all day, but i kept it running i didn't want to get stuck. Tonight the car will not start, and i don't here the pump power up. It started once, then died out in a few seconds like it was starving for gas.
I tied to get that case open for the relay, but its stuck, i don't think it has ever been opened, i even broke off some bits of it trying to get it open. I just might have to crack it open tomorrow in the daylight, and do the spark test.
You don't think there is any chance this mechanic could be right? It just seems to me that its a relay or some connection. I don't know if pumps either work, don't work, or slowly die out. I had the car for about a week and a half now, and it has ran fine. Is there anything that the last owners could have done to keep the car running for a while, because they knew the fuel system was going bad?
I also put some marvel mystery oil in the gas today, don't know if this could give me any problems.
-Dan
Answer -
Hi Dan,
You did the right thing in just paying the bill. It isn't worth the risk of having those personal issues with other people who are your friends.
On the situation, I would urge you to do the spark plug test the next time the car won't start. And it you don't get a spark, then use a neon light tester or voltmeter to measure whether during a 5 second crank your are getting 12V on the plug-in for the spark coil (which is located at the center of the engine, the plug has a T-shaped arrangement of the two pins), measure for voltage between the "upright of the T pin" and a ground point (for example the metal intake manifold) and see if you get voltage for 5 seconds, 1 second, or not at all. If only for 1 second then do a fault code readout. Let me know what you measure and any fault codes.
I would not break the lid on the box, it needs to be sealed against water and dirt intrusion. Clean it an look over the surface of the lid for latch mechanism, and try spraying some penetratin spray around the underside of the lid. Wait until it penetrates, don't break the material of the box.
I would not unnecessarily focus on the fuel pump until you can prove that it is the problem. Also, do that spark coil plug measurement I just described when your helper turns the ignition from off to run position. It should show 12v for about 1 second, and if it does and you don't hear the fuel pump for 1 second then you do have an issue with either the fuel pump relay or the pump itself. So then do a voltage measurement under the car, at the fuel pump in the same way (just put you neon or meter across the two pins of the plug to the fuel pump and see if you get 12v when the helper puts the switch to run, and also when he tries to start the engine). This testing of the circuit must be done before yougo to the extreme of buying and installing a fuel pump. Please do these tests or there will be no way to know what is wrong when the engine won't start.
Roland
Hi,
Are you sure that is the relay box, next to the battery, it looks more like it has two tubes going into the back end of it than wires. Here is a link to a photo i took of back end of it. Still it doesn't seem like it will open. The numbers on the bottom are 4459052 33321 A001
http://ru486.homestead.com/files/box2.jpg
I took one of the pulgs out and have a photo of it also at the link below. I didn't do the spark test yet because no one is around. The rest of the plugs are going to be a pain to get out if i need to change them.
http://ru486.homestead.com/files/plug.jpg
Answer -
Hi Dan,
No the power distribution center where all the relays are located is between the battery and the firewall, in the space in front of the driver's side strut tower and the large air hose right behind the battery. Do you see a rectangular box in that space? If not, then are you sure you have a 91-94 car, or might it be a '90 or earlier? The photo 2jpg that you reference earlier shows the area pretty well but I can't see down into that space.
On the spark test, you don't have to remove a spark plug, just have a spare spark plug and plug it into the spark plug wire/rubber insulator cap that you have removed from one of the installed spark plugs. Then after you have done that plug in of the spare plug, hold the rubber insulator and press the threaded area of the spare plug againt the cylinder head or any clean metal surface so that the shell is grounded (just like it were screwed into a spark plug hole) and then if someone will crank the starter you just look at the spark gap and see whether a spark jumps or not and if so for a full 5 seconds of cranking. You don't have to do more than that, because whatever you see with one such set up you will also see if you tried to do it with any of the remaining 5 spark plug wires.
So put the plug back in the engine (be careful to put in in straight so as not to cross-thread it, and tighten it down to about 15 foot pounds (again don't overdo this, maybe take it dowh as tight as you can with your fingers until ih hits bottom and then wrench it no more that 1/4 of a turn with a wrench handle).
So get a spare spark plug at the parts store, then you will be ready the next time the engine dies to check for spark.
Take another view of the driver's side looking down more if possible so I can see whether you have the power distribution center rather that relays mounted all over the inner fender as was the case thru '90.
Roland
Hello again,
I still have not found the power distribution center. Some said to check under the glove box, so i removed the plastic cover and found nothing. I have a few more photos of the area where you say it should be, this time in more detail.
http://ru486.homestead.com/files/left.jpg
http://ru486.homestead.com/files/right.jpg
http://ru486.homestead.com/files/side.jpg
Could it be that this is not a 93, but an older car, maybe a different engine? Where are all the VIN mumbers located at?
Also when i was looking around i removed the overhead cam, and i noticed a hose on the bottom of the cam that was not attached to anything, the cam has two hoses on it, near a small reservoir on the bottom left side of the cam, the hose had some oil leaking out of it, anyways i couldn't find out where it attached to. Here is a photo of the cam with this hose attached.
http://ru486.homestead.com/files/hose.jpg
Here is a pic of where the cam was and the top hose attached the engine. How would i ever be able to get to the spark pulg down there on the bottom?
http://ru486.homestead.com/files/cam.jpg
I was also wondering i we could speak via email, you get maxed out in the evening and i have to wait til the next day. If this wouldn't be a problem for you, and you have the time. Here is my email address dan931973@yahoo.com
LMK and thanks again for the help.
- Dan
Answer -
Hi Dan,
The way to tell the year model is to look at the 10th position of the VIN number. The VIN is etched on a plate on the top of the dash pad, and you can see it most easily from outside the car by looking thru the windshield at its lowest edge, in front of the driver, right where the dash meets the windshield. I believe that you have a '90 and this will be verified if the 10th place of the VIN is the letter "L". That means also that you don't have a power distribution center, and that the relays are all on the strut tower and around the corner on the inner fender, where I now see them to be. There is supposed to be one relay on the front of the strut tower (the starter relay), and then three relays on the inner fender nearby: fan relay, a/c clutch relay, and autoshutdown (ASD) relay (from rear to front). That also means that there is no fuel pump relay but rather the ASD relay handles the fuel pump and the spark and the injector system by itself. So check that VIN out.
On the "cam" I am not getting the picture; do you mean the air intake box with the air filter? There should be a hose attached to the nipple on the box that you show in the picture and its other end should go to the intake manifold on the top middle of the engine; that is why the loose hose is probably dripping oil, it may be the one that goes to the air intake box.
I have to admit that I don't have a 3.0L engine myself, rather a 2.5L 4 cyl so I can only work from the shop manuals that I have, Dan, in assessing where various things are supposed to be connected. It would be good if you could find another LeBaron convert or coupe owner with the same 3.0L engine and then you could see where things are supposed to go first hand. The 'no start' that you have off and on may be related to the ASD relay so check its plug. Also check for fault codes and as I described check for spark the next to you have a no start. If the ASD relay doesn't get the signal from the engine controller to close the relay, then you will get neither spark nor fuel pump action.
The fuel pump relay didn't come to the vehicle until the 1992 model, and the power distribution center came in '91.
As to communicating outside the allexperts site, I am signed up to do 6 questions a day and that is keeping me pretty busy, so see if you can't find another LeBaron from the early 90's to look at. 1990 was the first year that the 3.0L was used in the that car.
Roland
Hi, i checked the VIN and the 10th VIN is "P", maybe the engine is from an older model, anyway to check the engine to see? Any other VIN's located elsewhere?
Any chance because of this that i can return the car?
Oh and all the photos are working now. Did you see the ASD relay on any of those photos? Or is it on the passenger side of the car? Any numbers i can go by, and check them all?
Maybe the intake is from a different engine thats why i can't find an attachment to the bottom hose on the engine.
-Dan
Answer -
Hi Dan,
The P means it is a '93. If the seller claimed it is a '94 then that is wrong, the letter would be R if it were a '94. Then I must point out to you if the 5th letter of The VIN is an A then you have the LeBaron (A) 4 door sedan model. That would explain all the discrepencies.
There should be 3 relays on the driver's side inner fender the foward most one is the ASD relay. The ASD relay will have wires that are dark green/orange, dark blue, dark blue/yellow, and red/white. When you find such a plug at a relay you will have found the ASD relay.
Please no more questions today, Dan. I'm feeling a bit put upon.
Roland
Hello
I found the relay, i was mounted with another one, so i unpluged them both, to get at this relay remove it and put in the new one.
The fuel pump relay i have is the asd relay right, i called the auto parts store and the just show a fuel pump relay for a 93 lebaron LE, 4 door or not.
Anyways the car didn't start. And hasn't started at all in over a day. Now i have a problem with the starter getting power, i would guess its because i unpluged both relays, the fuel pump relay and the one mounted with it. Because that is when it started. Unless the battery, or cable is going bad now.
What can you tell me about the fuel shut off solenoid? Is that inside the fuel pump? Or any fuel shut off switch on the car?
Dan
Answer -
Hi Dan,
I am still unclear as to which body style (model) you have. What is the letter in the fifth place of the VIN? How many relays are there on the driverside strut tower and on the inner fender shield? Have you put the old ones all back in, or have you replaced one? If so, which one and are you sure it was ths correct relay. Do you have spark? I really can't picture what is going on.
Roland
It was an "A" it is the 4 door sedan.
I put the old relay back in. There are four mounted and one loose. I have the battery on a charger now. When i unplug these two relays and plug them back in the car has problems with power and getting power to the started. I had to remove that other relay because it was bundled together with the ASD fuel pump relay.
Dan
Answer -
Hi Dan,
O.K. there are 5 relays on that driver's side of the car correct?
Starting at the strut tower the inboard relay is a fuel pump relay, next to that is the starter relay, then going around the corner the rear one is the radiator fan relay, the middle one is the A/C compressor clutch relay, and the forward most relay is the autoshutdown relay (ASD). So that is the way they were layed out when the car left the factory. If you can't tell which one went where then we can match them up by color codes of the wires into which each of the relays is plugged. So get that sorted out first, get all the relays attached to the mounting places and then go from there. Let me know the color codes of any relay socket that you can't be sure of where it was originally mounted. And try to keep the original relay in each socket as you received the car, just in case the relays are different from oneanother.
Roland
Hello Roland,
So you are saying there is a fuel pump relay and a ASD relay in this car? Would the ASD relay pay any role in this? Should i sawp out the ASD relay with this new relay i have for the pump and see what happens?
I got the starter to turn over now, i must have been a bad connection to the battery. I never got any of the relays mixed up when i removed them. I know the fuel pump relay has an orange/green wire. What are the colors of the ASD relay? Also do these relays have part numbers? if so what are the pump relay and ASD relay?
I did the spark test for 5 seconds, i'm getting spark, about 7-8 sparks jump, i don't know if i'm supposed to get one continuious spark or not? Does it sound like the fuel pump has died? Any way to check that pump, give it 12 volts and see if it powers up, without removing it? Or would that be risky?
I also get the codes 12 55
Dan
Answer -
Hi Dan,
The codes are o.k., just mean you had the battery disconnected recently, and the other is "end of readout"
The spark so long as it lasted for the entire time that you cranked it seems o.k. (if you used the screwdriver shaft method it would probably be jumping around you wouldn't expect a constant pulsing. You get one spark for every other revolution of the engine, and the crank speed is about 6 revs per second, so 3 spark every second is about normal.
If you don' hear the fuel pump for a second when you turn it to run, then check if you 12V for a second at the pump/ or just jump 12V to pump and listen. It's not risky.
The relays have part numbers but I don't know them or know whether they are interchangeable. Read the number on the old relays and see.
The relay wires are colored as follows, in the order they should be mounted on the sheet metal, moving clockwise:
Fuel Pump DB/YL. DG/BL,RD/WT,DB
Starter YL, RD, BR, BR/YL
Fan Relay DB/PK, LG, RD, DB
A/C clutch DB/BK, DB/OR, LG, GY
ASD relay DB/YL, RD/WT, DG/OR, DB
D=Dark, L=Light
G=green, B=blue, BR =brown, Pk = pink, Gy=gray
If you are getting spark then the ASD relay is working fine.
So I guess that takes you back to the fuel pump or fuel pump relay as the likely problem.
Roland
Hello
Once the rain lets up i'll check the connection to the pump nd the pump itself. Would a black light be fine to check the connection to the pump? What power source could i use to check the pump, i have one off those i have one of those hand held battery starters, its a battery that you charge up on an outlet. Then i have a battery charger that you plug in. I don't want to give the pump too much or to little voltage. Then i'll need to find some wires to attach, would any copper wires do? I'll have to strip some from something.
So the ASD isn't a problem them. Like i said i put in the new fuel pump relay and it didn't change anything, so i guess its not that. When fuel pumps die are they know for working one day and not working the next?
Dan
Answer -
P.S. Yes a pump can operate intermittantly when it is failing, but so too could a wire that is flakey in its continuity. So that is why you need to verify that there is 12V at the pump commector and then that the pump won't work to conclude that the pump is the cause. For a jumper just a wire that is about as thick as the dark green/black wire which is 16 gauge. Get two alligator clips, and if you can't find a good connection to the wire at the socket, then just take a straight pin and stick it through the insulation then atttach the alligator to the pin, or alternatively, just stick the bare end of the 16 ga wire whose other end it attached to the battery + into the pin socket that is attached to the dark green/black wire. Bare enough of the end of the wire to make a pseudo connector pin that will wedge itself in the pin socket when it is inserted. Then listen for the pump or go under the car to the fuel pump connector to verify 12V is getting there.
Roland
Roland
Yes, a neon glow light will be sufficient to check for voltage. You can apply 12V from the battery to the dark green/black wire of the fuel pump relay socket and that will send 12V to the pump. So do that jump from the + post to the dark green/ black wire at the pump relay socket, listening for the pump to start. If it doesn't start then go to the fuel pump, remove the the two wire connector (dark green/black and black only wires) and see if the neon glow lamp lights when placed across the two pins of the connector. If it does, then you know that the fuel pump is getting the 12V from the relay. Then if that is the case, the pump is bad, if not, then the wire from the relay to the two wire connector is open and will need to be traced to find out why. That is all there is to it.
Roland
Answer -
Hi Dan,
If the pump is pumping reliably then the only thing that you described that makes me wonder is the sound of the hissing. That might be the sound of the gas returning from the pressure regulator at the end of the fuel rail on the engine. That regulator should return some gas so as to maintain the pressure in the system at about 50 psi. If the regulator is not doing that but instead allowing the gas to flow back too rapidly then the pressure will be too low to operate the injectors with sufficient fuel to operate the engine. The only way to be sure is to put a pressure gauge on the port of the fuel rail and idle the engine and see what it reads and then try revving it and see if the pressure holds at around 50 psi. The gauge might cost $25 but it would tell you exactly what the situation is where it needs to be correct for the engine to operate.
Roland.
Answer -
Hi Dan,
The regulator and the fuel rail and test port are all on the top of the engine. The line from the tank goes to the rail at the front of the engine and the rail is U-shaped and runs past the injectors on the front back of cylinders, then crosses over at the rear of the engine and flows past the injectors on the rear bank. There is a port in the middle of the rear rail.The regulator (a small round metal can with a port on each end) is on the end of the return rail, back at the front of the engine and there is a return line from the regulator to the fuel tank.
The regulator costs about $75 so you wouldn't replace it without knowing that it wasn't maintaining the proper pressure in the system by means of a gauge measurement. It is easy to replace.
I think it would be helpful for you to have a shop manual for work on your car. The Haynes is probably sufficent. Or if you can find a used Chrysler service manual for the '94 model year front wheel drive cars (try eBay, you may have to watch for it for a few weeks until one is offered) that would be the best.
I have to request that you limit the number of questions that you send me, Dan, because I just can't handle so many from one person. So please try to get a manual, or a local do-it-yourselfer, to help with these individual steps in getting your car running again. How about no more than one question per day as a limit?
Roland
AnswerHi Dan,
I just remembered that I hadn't answered as to the type of system. I believe the MAP/rpm/TPS means a speed density system is what Chrysler is using. Mass air flow uses a box with a moveable flap to measure the volume of air at the intake, and I'm not sure how that differs from the air vane type.
Roland
