QuestionHello Roland, did that also...and the voltage stays on.
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Checked those...all is ok there...now im suicidal :( any other suggestions?
Thanks roland!
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Hello Roland. Ok, here is where it stands now. As you requested, I checked for the EGR, but this car does not have one. I did see a diagram in the manual where the pipe comes out of the exhaust manifold, and I see where it would go, but there are no holes for it. I also checked the location where the valve itself would be, and nope, it doesnt exist. Also, the car just cuts out completely. It does chock before it dies, just dies straight out. There still are no codes, I checked vacuum, and lines, and no problem there. Still, if I try to restart it without turning off the key for a few seconds, it wont start and there is no spark. Turn of the key for a few seconds and restart is fine. Any other suggestions?
Thanks for your help,
Chris
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Hello Roland. Well, after playing for a while(and not changing anything), I can only get the car started for 2 seconds. It then dies. try to restart it and it acts like it tries but immediatly dies. Turn the key off, wait a minuete and same thing. Check the igition and ASD and they seem fine. Fuel to the rail is fine and you here it kick in as you mentioned below. Is there any other test I can run? Especially to see if it is the computer, which I had replaced about 3 years ago.
Thanks again for your help,
Chris
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Hello Roland, and thanks for your assistance. I am still not having luck with this. Let me clarify by what I said of NO Codes. What I meant to say was there were no codes that indicated anything. There is though a code 55.
As far as the tests that you mentioned below, all seem to pan out as you specified. The coil seems to be fine, the resistance between posts are within your specs and between the terminals checks out ok also. Monitoring the b+ during crank also checked out correct.
Last night, the car would run fine for about 5 mins, then die. If you tried starting it without turning off the key, it wouldnt start. If you turned off the key for 10 seconds, it would start and run for a min or two(did this at least 15 times). Same thing over and over. This morning after first start, and only letting it run for about two mins, it wont start at all now. At this very moment it will start and run for 2 seconds then die. In the meantime, I also replaced the crank sensor, which as you have noticed, made no difference. Also, fuel pressure is still just above 40 at the rail.
Im lost confused and at my whits end. Any other suggestions is greatly appreciated.
Thanks again Roland
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Hello Roland, and thanks for your help in advance.
I have a 1991 Chrysler 5th ave 3.3, when you first start it is fine and runs fine. After about 5 mins, the engine dies. Also notice no spark at plug wires at that point. Sits for a few mins, and starts fine...dies again once warmed up. Fuel pressure is fine, the only thing I notice is no spark. There are no codes. Can this be cam/crank sensor when it runs fine cold? Can you reccomend any tests. I dont have andy OBDC testers, just a voltmeter.
Any suggestions appreciated.
Thanks Again,
Chris
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Hi Chris,
Yes, the loss of spark is what happens when the crankshaft sensor ceases to function, though it could also be the spark coil, or a defective ASD relay. But the fuel pump should also be deactivated if a bad ASD were the situation (unless it is 'fueling' on the built-up pressure in the fuel rail and lines). Actually you don't need a diagnostic reader to get the fault codes:
Try using the ignition key: turn it "on-off-on-off-on" and leave it "on" (doing this quickly, no longer than 5 seconds). By "on" I mean just the normal position when the engine is running, not the cranking position. The 'check engine'light will remain on when you leave the key in the "on" position with the engine still not running. But then watch the 'check engine' light to begin flashing, then pause, flashing, pause, etc. Count the number of flashes before each pause and keep track of the numbers. Repeat the readout and verify the counts are correct. Then group them in pairs in the order that they came out, thus forming two digit numbers. You may notice that the pause is shorter between the digits of a given number, and longer between the numbers themselves. Then send me a 'follow-up' question telling me the results of your readout. By the way, 55 will be the last number (two groups of 5 flashes each) and that is the code for "end of readout".
The crankshaft sensor code is 11, and the camshaft sensor is 54.
There is also an essay on fault codes at the site:
http://www.allpar.com/fix/codes.html
which gives the meaning of the code numbers. But then you need to get specific info for what exactly might be the diagnostic tests or parts to replace to complete the repair.
Now I notice that you said "no codes" (not even a 55? which should always come out because it means 'end of readout') so I guess that you have actually done the ignition key readout, but without a 55 I think you better try that readout again. That being the case, I would check the primary resistances of the three coils in the pack. Remove the harness plug for the coil pack. The upper right pin on the pack is for the 12V B+ line
so measure the resistance between that pin and each of the other three pins, and each should read 0.5 to 0.7 ohms. Then check the resistances between the paired secondary tower poles which should be 7,000 to 15,800 ohms. Finally, if those prove out, I would monitor the B+ pin of the harness connector for voltage during a 5 second crank. If it stays at 12V for the full 5 seconds then the ASD relay is working, if it drops after a second or so to 0V then it suggests that the crank signal is not reaching the controller, and finally if it doesn't show voltage at all that the ASD relay or the engine controller or their wiring is out.
Finally, you could monitor the resistance pulses at the 3 other pins of the harness as you crank the engine to verify that the controller is sending the timed spark signals as needed to generate the spark.
So do the tests and clarify the code situation and we'll take it from there if you don't figure it out yourself, first.
Roland
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Hi Chris,
I'm wondering whether when it has died and you try to crank it are you getting spark, even though it refuses to start? (In your first question you said you weren't getting spark after it had died). If so and if you can hear the fuel pump run for a second or so before you move to the "start" position, then the ASD relay is apparently working o.k. and providing power to the injectors, the coil, and pump. The issue then is why does it die then after a few minutes or a few seconds depending upon recent running history? If you aren't getting spark, and you have the new crank sensor, then maybe the asd relay is cutting off power to the b+ of the coil, the pump and the injectors when the engine dies.
You could pull the ASD relay (upper right hand corner of the distribution center) and jumper across the pins of the relay socket with a jumper wire that parallels the narrow dimension of the center's box which in effect would lock in the power to the pump, the coil, the injectors, and the oxygen sensor and see if that produces a reliable run condition. If so, then the relay is weak, or the signal to its activation coil from the controller is unreliable, or the switch points in the coil are corroded. But at least you could know that with the jumper you have power to everything that should make the engine run. Then figure out why you need to do the jump to get the power.
This all sounds very wordy, but I hope it makes sense. Let me know how things go.
Another interesting observation is that whether it starts or not seems to be related to whether or not you move the key back to 'off' before trying the starter. That would make me wonder if there is a poor connection in one of the sections of the ignition switch. But it should be manifested as a loss of power from the ASD, or maybe of power to the contoller. You might want to check the dark blue wire in the 6-cavity diagnostic readout box connector (located between the battery and the shock tower), specifically the cavity at the lower right corner (if you hold the connector with the narrow end toward the left) because that dark blue wire is coming from the section of the ignition switch that powers all sorts of engine devices. Maybe that ignition switch section opens up after a few minute/seconds of operation?
You also might want to charge up the battery because it has probably drained down to the point where the voltage is a bit low. Also, the fuel pressure should be 48 psi, whereas you said it was a little above 40. If the gauge is accurate, it might suggest the regulator is not quite getting the job done.
Roland
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I just thought about the engine dying in 2 seconds. That sounds like the engine controller is not getting the crank shaft sensor pulse information and therefore it is shutting down; yet you replaced the sensor and also the engine does have spark enough to run for 2 seconds. So I wonder about whether the engine controller may be falsely disconnecting the ASD power to the fuel pump, coil, and injectors and is behaving as if it thought the engine is not turning over because maybe the signal from the crank sensor is not being detected. Yet it won't set a code 11, and it seems to actually run for 2 seconds which it wouldn't do if the crank sensor were truly not putting out a signal. So that is all very atypical. Well, let me know if anything improves it.
Roland
Hi Chris,
Then it seems to be not a spark issue or a b+/ASD issue. These no start with no codes are a real headache. I would lean toward a mixture issue then. I trust you have checked the coolant temp sensore to be in the range of 7,000 to 13,000 ohms at cold start? The other possibility is that the exhaust gas recirc valve is stuck/sticking open which will dilute the mixture so as to prevent running. Take a look at the stem of the valve inside the saddle-shaped cage on the top of the valve. It has a slot so you can watch it move (once you get the engine back to running) and for now that slot is useful for manipulating the valve stem in and out (the stem is horizontal on your 3.3 I believe) and so you want to make sure it moves freely and seems to close tightly. I would spray some WD-40 on the stem to make sure it is free to move so as to allow the spring action to close the valve tightly.
The last mixture issue could be the MAP sensor which if it were off-value and reading the ambient air pressure inaccurately could cause a wrong mixture without setting a code. Unfortunately you need a readout box like a DRB II to see where it thinks you are relative to sea level. If it fails in this manner it may do so without setting the MAP fault code(s). This happened to me with our 2.5L '89 engine. A new MAP cost about $70 so you take a chance on that being it.
Also, check vacuum lines for leaks, cracks, disconnects.
Let me know if any of these bear fruit.
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P.S. Another possibility is that the ignition switch section that provides power to the engine contoller is flakey. You can access that switch section output at the diagnostic connector, under the hood just in front of the shock tower. It has 6 cavities, and if you hold it so there are 2 on the left and 4 on the right, the cavity that tracks the ignition switch voltage is in the lower right corner. So you could attach a voltmeter to that cavity and run the probe wires into the cabin so you could watch to see if the 12V disappears when the engine dies.
Roland
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the EGR report, which is correct because I now see that the 49-state 3.3 didn't have an egr. On the need to return the key to off after a die off, to get spark, I believe that is normal. If the ASD cuts the power to the spark coil/fuel pump/O2 sensor then the engine will die with the key in run position and that then prompts the engine controller to cancel the ASD coil request for activation of the relay. Then you have to turn the key off to restart the ASD sequencing. So that is normal.
I would therefor suggest that we have to focus on what would cause the ASD relay to shut down the engine. I would normally say that the lack of a signal from the crank sensor would cause the ASD to shut down, but then you should get a code 11. Alternatively is it possible that the ASD relay itself is unreliable? Could its internal contact points be oxiodized and thus breaking the pathway that powers the coil, etc.? I really don't know, but it is worth considering. If the time for which the engine will operate before dieing gets shorter and shorter it is possible that the ASD points are warming up and thus breaking down with the passage of operating time.
Have you tried substituting another relay in the power center for the ASD to see if that solves the problem (but it might make another problem begin whereever you do the switch? Why not select another relay of the same part number and move the original ASD relay to its spot or another spot where it won't be crucial (say the one of the concealed headlamp relays or the back up lamp relay, if they are of the same part no.) and see if that solves the spontaneous shutdown problem that is plaguing you?
Roland
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Hi Chris,
Try monitoring the ignition switch voltage as I described. The wire color is dark green as a trace against a natural background color. I think based on no codes, need to return the key to off, etc. that it may be a situation where the controller is interpreting what has happened to be equivalent to turning off the ignition switch even though you aren't doing that.
Otherwise, I'll keep thinking.
Roland
AnswerHi Chris,
I can't think of anyother tests to do. Maybe monitor the voltage at the fuel pump to see if it is intermittant?
If you have spark and compression when it refuses to start, and no codes, that is all I can imagine might be the problem.
Roland
