QuestionQUESTION: I am having a big starter problem with my 55 Dodge. I bought the car about 4 years ago and discovered that it did not have the 270 cubic engine Hemi in it but somewhere along the line the correct engine was replaced with a 1959 Plymouth engine. I drove it and everything was fine and am happy with it.
Two years after I bought it, however, I heard a grinding noise when I tried to start it. When I pulled the starter I discovered that the housing assembly was broken near the shoulder that butts up against the bell housing. The teeth on the Bendix were completely destroyed.
I inspected the piece that was broken and discovered that it had been welded before right next to the new break to fix what looked like a break just like the one I had just experienced.
I replaced that starter with another one and the car started and was fine until about a week ago when I heard a bang and grinding again.
When I took that starter out the housing was broken just like before. The teeth were damaged also. One thing I noticed was that when I did the original replacement I put it back together exactly the same as when I took it apart which meant I put a locking washer on both bolts on both sided of the shoulder that butted against the bell housing. I assumed that they must have been used as a kind of a shim.
Now that I have the same exact problem as I did before, I’m thinking that these “shim lock washers” may be the cause of the problem because unless the starter has full contact agains the housing that would allow flexing and eventually cause the housing to fail.
Am I right? If not do you have any suggestions as to how I could diagnose and resolve the problem ?
Thank you.
The break is is complete.
ANSWER: The mounting surface of the starter is supposed to be fitted tightly to the face of the flywheel housing - those washers were someone's attempt to cure some other problem - most likely caused by the previous damage and repair.
My advice is to get another known correct starter for that engine (and make sure the number of teeth in the starter drive pinion is correct for the flywheel on the engine (that could easily have been the original problem - wrong teeth count). Also, you need to pull the flywheel cover off the housing from the bottom of the engine and carefully inspect all the teeth on the flywheel -I'll be amazed if there isn't also some damage there too. If the flywheel looks OK, count the teeth and make sure it is the correct one for the engine too.
Dick
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Thank you for the quick answer.
When you said "If the flywheel looks OK count the teeth and make sure it is the correct one for the engine too." Did you mean the flywheel?
If you do mean the flywheel, I assume you mean I should try to find a part number on it and get a hold of a reference book. Is that right?
One last question If he bolt holels line up and the starter shoulder fits snuggly against the housing does the size of the hole the starter fits in have to be real tight?
thanks again.
ANSWER: Yes, I meant the number of teeth on the flywheel.
Please reply with a follow-up question to me with the following info:
Does your car have an automatic transmission? If so, is it the original PowerFlite?
Please look at the starter and see what number is on it. Count the teeth on the starter pinion
The 55 Dodge: The original starter was an MCH 6206, a 6 volt starter. The mating flywheel was part number 1615533 if it was a manual shift car with a 10" clutch, or 1120458 with an 11" clutch.
The ring gear was 1138903 in either case.
If it did have Powerflite, the starter was the same, but the flex-plate and ring gear were different, and I do not have part numbers for those. The ring gear would have to have the same tooth count, though, because the starter is the same.
If your car still has the original starter, it is designed to work with the 1138903 ring gear.
The 59 Plymouth: The engine has to be either a 318 or a 361, there was no 270 in 1959, so the block is completely different than the 55 Dodge engine. The original starter may or may not bolt up to the new block correctly, but it would be a miracle if it did - this is very likely related to your problem.
The original 1959 starter was number MDU-6003 (unless the donor car was a Fury, in which case the starter was MDT-6001. This starter was intended to work with a 2121950 flywheel and a 1673646 ring gear.
I don't have a way to look up the correct tooth count for either of these ring gears- but it may be stamped on the ring gear itself. Look for a number like "164" or "158". It should be an even number.
The starter should have either 9 or 11 teeth on the drive pinion. If you have a good section of teeth on the starter, hold it up to the edge of the exposed ring gear (with the bottom cover off) and see if it seems to mesh perfectly.
The other question is how far the pinion projects into the housing to mesh with the ring gear. The shim washers may have been to correct for too much penetration. I'm just guessing wildly here - we really don't have any way to know what is wrong without knowing what parts were used to get your car running after the engine swap. Your best bet might be to get a new starter from one of the vendors who specialize in converting Asian type gear reduction mini-starters to crank our big V8s. They will only need to know what engine they are starting (318 or 361). Talk to Peformance Automotive Warehouse or Summitt racing about a replacement starter.
If you don't see any evidence of modification on your engine block starter mounting area, this should solve your problem.
The original starter for this engine would have fit perfectly into the hole with very little clearance, and not require any shims - just bolt it on and everything should line up if they used the Plymouth starter, flywheel and ring gear. What I don't know is if the Dodge torque converter would bolt to the flex plate of the Plymouth engine - they may have had to modify the flex plate if your car has automatic transmission.
This is exactly why I tell users of this service that I do not get into ANY questions involving modified cars or engine swaps or the like - it can be a nightmare, with problem that may not be possible to solve without a close look at the parts and a machine shop to fix things.
Do you know if the donor car was automatic or manual transmission? If both cars were/are manual shift cars, that gives me enough information to get the part numbers from the ring gear and flywheel for you, although I don't have the teeth count in my books.
In an engine swap, there are many, many pitfalls - that is why I tell folks not to do it.
For instance, the ring gear may be a different distance back from the mounting face of the starter than the original.
What I am concerned about is that they may have mixed up the flywheel and ring gear from the original engine with the the one from the replacement engine, not realizing that the starter has to be the correct one for each set-up to avoid the exact problems you are having - that is one of the things that often happens when folks start swapping major parts.
Do you know if the donor car had an automatic or a stick shift? If one was a manual shift car and the other an automatic, that's a possible conflict, and since the 59 automatic would have been different than the 55 automatic, that's another Pandora's box to deal with. If your car has the original automatic transmission, which I'd assume it does, they would have had to swap the 55 flexplate to the Plymouth engine, and I'm not sure the starter from either engine would have matched that ring gear.
I wish you good luck with this, and I'll try to help further if you give me what information you can. I typed this over a 2 day period- I see I asked some questions twice - please ignore that - I'm tired and don't want to re-edit the whole thing. I'm sure you can figure that out!
Dick.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Thanks for all your help. We finally had a couple of good days here in the Detroit area so I had a chance to get under the Dodge and try to do everything you suggested. The engine by the way is a 318.
I counted the teeth on the ring gear and they total 146. I looked but couldn't find a part number or the flywheel or ring gear. All the teeth are there and the leading edges of some are rough but not bad overall.
I was talking to friend of mine and he said that since the car had been converted to 12 volt but the 6 volt starter was not changed and it was a Bendix drive instead of a positive engage starter type he thought that the force of a 6 volt starter would hit the ring gear with so much force that it might easily break the housing.
Does that make any sense to you? If it does I should be looking for a 12 volt starter like from a 56 dodge (they converted from 6 to 12 in 1956) and if everthing remained the same ie transmission etc. maybe that might solve the problem.
Thank you once again.
I believe the transmission is a Powerflite for two reasons first the car still uses the shift on the dash so it is still a two speed. the second is I found a number on the transmission (1406240-5 or 1408240-5 couldn't see if it was a 6 or 8 clearly) I went online and think I found a picture of a Powerflite that had those numbers on it.
I looked at the original starter that I had kept and it is in fact a Autolite MCH6206 starter. 6 volt.
AnswerYour friend's suggestion has merit - that may be part of the problem, but it doesn't explain the mysterious shims needed between the starter housing and the mounting hole.
I think your best bet at this point is to obtain a starter for a 1959 Plymouth 318 engine, and if that fits, it should solve your problem.
I agree, your transmission is still the original Powerflight. Apparently the ring gear teeth count is OK, from what you say. Two years of driving with the wrong tooth count would have done a lot more damage to the ring gear than what you see.
Good luck with this!
Dick
