QuestionQUESTION: Greetings,
Thanks for your reply from my question from 2/6/2008. I checked the block as you advised and the only number that is there is on a 2x2 inch raised square on the block. it is 027. I can't find any other numbers/letters that went along with the info you sent. I guess that mystery will be out on the back burner for now. My new plea for help is in the valve train. I have a Packard Manuel for my car but it doesn't have an area for valve spring removal. I have the covers off and have access to the springs. What if any do I need to do before I compress the spring for retainer removal?
I have a tool a buddy lent me for doing Flathead Fords. It fits and seems like it will work (spring compressor).Should I soak everything before I get started?
Thanks for your help.
Dave in Texas.
ANSWER: I dug back in my records to find your original question (I do so many on here that I can't remember back that far!)- I still think you should find out what engine you have there. The number that will tell you that is stamped on the block, just below the head gasket, up over the starter (if it is a 48-54 engine), just about directly below the temp sender that sticks out of the head. Take a wire brush and scrub the side of the block there - you should see the number. In the previous response, I told you what the numbers mean, but when you get the number, if you want to tell me what it is, I can tell you more about the engine, probably. To save you looking it up, the engine number will be a letter, then 6 numbers, then possibly one or two more letters after that.
The valve spring tool has to be the type that reaches up around the manifolds to grab the valve head to hold it down, otherwise you will just push the valve up as you compress the spring, and not be able to get the keepers out. If you don't have that type of tool you can also use the other type by leaving the head on so that the valves cannot come up very far, but that will make you have to compress the springs further.
As for using the valve spring tool, it wouldn't hurt to spray some penetrating oil in there to help the keepers release when you compress the springs. You have to push the springs WAY up to expose the keepers, and you have to be VERY careful to keep the keepers from escaping down through the holes in the chamber - if they go down there, you have to drop the pan to get them back. I stuff rags in all the holes to plug them, or anything that will not allow the keepers to fall through. There will be a lot of muck there.
Since you have the access covers off, you can see if you have hydraulic of solid lifters. If the top of the lifter has a simple two nut adjuster on it, it is a solid lifter. A hydraulic lifter has a shiny spring that holds the contact up against the tip of the valve stem. If you have hydraulic lifters, do not take the lifters apart - they are extremely sensitive to any tiny particle of dirt or lint, and they are custom fitted to the bottom part - if they get mixed up, you'll be in a world of hurt!
I don't know which manual you have for the car, but the shop manual should have a section on engine rebuilding, which certainly should cover valve removal!
Dick
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QUESTION: Hi Dick,
I hope all is well out your way and that the Motor GODS smile upon you.
As for my self, I've been taking a break from my 49 Packard. But I've decided to pull the engine since I cannot get the valve springs and keepers to agree with me with the engine in the vehicle. I tried using the tool that requires leaving the head on. but no go, I can't get the keepers to budge.
And since I'm going to have it out i plan on rebuilding the motor. Kanter Auto sells a full engine rebuild kit for about $850. Do you have an opinion on these folks?
With that said, my question is where do you hook up to pull this beast out of the car? The Service manual doesn't tell me ( i think this service book is half baked) It has most of the info needed but lacks a few critical points.
I planned on using bolts in the place of the block studs. but it seems they lead into the blocks water jackets? I'm afraid of cracking something since it is not solid meat.
If you can, please let me know where i should attach to pull this baby.I can't find a strong spot.
Thankyou.
Dave In Texas.
ANSWER: Well, regardless of what you order for the engine, you are going to need to know whether you have a 282, a 288, a 327 (5 or 9 main bearings), a 356 engine or a 359, and you can't tell by the numbers on the top of the head, so we've got to stay on this subject long enough to figure it out. If you look all the way to the bottom of the block on the passenger side, toward the rear, there is a date code cast into the block - that will at least narrow down whether or not it is likely to be the original engine. Also, tell me the number stamped on the plate that is held to the top of the cowl, under the hood, just forward of the driver's side windshield. It will be something like "2392-XXXXX" - I don't care about the last 4 or 5 digits, or any letter that may be between the first 4 and the last group, but those first 4 digits will tell me what engine it SHOULD be, anyway.
I think you are probably going to find the engine number stamped into the side of the block above the starter or a ways forward of that, on a machined smooth pad about 2 inches long but only about 3/4 inch tall, when you start cleaning it up - and when you find that, we'll know for sure what you have. It will be something like G4XXXXX.
Otherwise, you will have to measure the bore and stroke, and see if it has hydraulic valve lifters to identify the engine, and you'll need to do that before you order parts.
Kanter Brothers are staffed with Packard experts - they will know what you need as soon as you know what engine you have, and have made the measurements of wear on the crank and bores so you know what sizes to order. You will probably be talking to Stuart Blond when you place your order (or you can ask for him when you call in), he is a personal friend of mine for over 20 years, and a good guy - he won't steer you wrong.
As for lifting the engine out, this should be done with the head on the engine, so if you have already removed the head, put it back on and bolt it down snug - don't worry about the torque spec, just tighten the nuts. (If you try to lift the engine with the head off, the studs will bend - the engine weighs almost 900 pounds, and close to 1200 pounds with the transmission.)
Then, remove one nut toward the passenger side rear, about 6 inches forward of the firewall, and slip a sturdy steel lifting bracket under the nut, then tighten the nut back up. Do the same with a nut that is near the driver's side front of the engine. Bolt chains to those two points and hook the chains to you lifting hoist or crane.
You should remove the exhaust/intake manifold and the radiator to give you a bit more room to maneuver the engine. You have to support the transmission with a jack or some solid item when you remove the engine, or else remove the two units in one piece, you can't leave the transmission hanging with no support on it's front, it will put too much stress on the transmission mounts.
Dick
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QUESTION: Hi Dick,
Thanks for your reply. I'm going to send you all numbers and letters that are on the block and head.
Head: PACKARD THUNDERBOLT Above Packard is the number 426408. above the AR in Packard is 327. There is a C superimposed over the letter L after Packard.
Passenger side Firewall: 92I925 and under that is a small plate 239211832. Lower passenger side on engine block 426008 and 2354 after that with a raised 1 with a small circle or zero in front of that.
Driver Side block: 3 inch by 1 inch raised square above sending unit. 027 are the only numbers visible. Lower block below Starter. 2354 with an A under the 5. There also a T by itself and a roman numeral looking X in the same vicinity.
These are all I can find. I hope it will help you decipher some of this. I also wanted to ask where the motor mounts are. I belive I found them but want to make sure.
Thankyou so much for your help.
I also bought a 1000LB motor stand. I had a welder put a 25 inch extension (heavy duty) on the lower arm between front and back wheels to help with the length of this motor. It looks like it will do the job.
AnswerWell, the plot thickens.
Your car is a 1949 model 2392, which is a 4 door sedan in the Standard Eight line of Packards. This is the least expensive of the Packards for that year, but still a very good car! Of course you probably already knew that.
The original engine was a 288 Cu In straight 8, with 5 main bearings, a bore and stroke of 3 1/2 inches by 3 3/4 inches, and a horsepower rating of 135HP.
As for what is in it now, that remains a mystery, since the numbers have been ground off the block for some reason.
The fact that the block casting number is in the 4XXXXX series indicates it is a later engine, and from the date codes, I suspect it is a 1954 engine. As for which engine it is, we still have to do some detective work.
Look down at the side of the engine, just above the oil pan and slightly behind the generator area - to see if there is a pattern of 4 large bolt holes tapped into the block, two toward the front of the engine and 2 more about 5 inches behind the front two, each pair of holes one above the other, about 2 inches apart. if those holes are there, it is a 1951 or later engine (different motor mounts were used starting in 1951, but the 1949 motor mounts can be used to put a later engine in an early car by changing some parts on the front of the engine.)
On the passenger side, note the raised ridge that runs the full length of the block, a few inches above the pan flange. This ridge has tapped holes in it, plugged with screwed in plugs, about 3/8 inch in diameter. Count those plugs - there will be either 5 or 9 - that tells you how many main bearings the engine has.
I see by re-reading your question from a week or so ago, that you have the access covers off the valve gear. In my response to that question, I told you how to check whether you have hydraulic valve lifters or solid lifters. Have you looked at them - if so, what is the result? That will further narrow down the list of possible engines you have.
Look at the date code on the top of the head, it is on the top of the very front of the head, toward the passenger side, facing upward, so you can read it by leaning in from the front over the radiator. It will have a normal looking date cast into it. This of course only serves to identify the head, not the block, but if someone simply swapped engines, he probably didn't bother to change the head.
Look at the number on the plate on the body of the distributor - and give me that number - I can tell you what engine it came with (again, not a promise that it is the right one for that engine.
We will not be able to tell much more without disassembly of the engine - things like displacement etc, but at least this will narrow it down.
Also, I'd like to know what carburetor is on it. 2 bbl or 4 bbl, and tag number if it still has the brass tag.
When we have the engine ID nailed down, you'll still have to have the cylinder bores checked for ridge, overbore and taper, and the crankshaft checked for condition, undersize etc. before you order the parts. I always have the machine work done on the crank and block before I order the parts, in case there is some problem with the block or crank that requires a further overbore or grinding on the crank. It avoids having an unusable set of parts sitting on the shelf! Usually, the camshaft journals are OK as is, but you should also replace the camshaft bearings, as a common source of oil pressure problems is worn camshaft bearings.
If you are lucky enough that the bores are not worn beyond service limits (given in the shop manual for taper, out of round, and wear), and the original Packard pistons are still in the engine, you will
get a much quieter engine if you save and re-use the Packard pistons. The replacement pistons are not nearly as quiet in operation as the original.
If you remove the valve lifters, be sure to keep each lifter together with it's mating parts, and stored in such a way that you know which one came out of which hole in the block - number them 1 through 16 or whatever method appeals to you, and keep them in order.
Be sure to have the block throughly cleaned out - remove the water distribution tube (brass tube behind the water pump) and the core plugs and have the block dipped or hot-tanked to remove all the accumulated crud and mud that will be in there. The head also.
The reward will be a cool running engine that will not have any problem coping with hot weather, parade use etc.
Dick
