QuestionThanks John for the words of advice. Here goes:
The car was driven into the dealership after overheating and spilling coolant with smoke and such. The strange thing was that after it had had it's tantrum, it drove fine. So, I took it straight to the dealer (natural reaction, right?) where they quoted me 3,000 to replace the head gasket and spark plugs and wires. I wasn't happy with that, so I had it towed to an independant shop (British European in San Jose) where he told me he could do the same work for $2,000. He did a "block check" (???), which he said it failed, and if I remember correctly meant that one or more of the cylinders was misfiring. He said he would open it up and find out more and when he did, he came back recommending that I replace the engine.
I couldn't believe the situation had changed so quickly, so I went down to take a look for myself. From his perspective the problem was apparent but from my perspective, it was anything but. I mean I saw what you'd expect to see from a 94,000 mile vehicle---a very dirty engine. The problem boils down to the engine block is aluminum, and the cylinders are made of steel, and I guess there is a seal around the head of the cylinder. That seal should be smooth, and they were around all of the cylinders except one. On cylinder number 8, there was a lip/step where I was told the cylinder has "sunk" into the chamber. Too much hassle and just as much money to rebuild in his opinion. His offer is $5,000 to remove, and replace the motor with a 67,000 mile engine that according to carfax report had been taken for oil changes every 3,000 miles. I looked around and a used Bosch engine runs between $2000-$3000, so he's charging about $2,000 for labor. It includes a 6-month warranty for the engine and labor. That pretty much sums it up, except that I still don't know what to do. The weird thing is I love my Disco, so I want to do it, but I have visions of headaches down the road plagued with an engine that will never be the same.
I've asked three very knowledgeable persons (including you) their opinion, two in favor of keeping my engine, and one saying I should go for it, but to first find out what caused the overheating so that I don't have this same problem again.
Thanks for lending your time.
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Followup To
Question -
I took my Disco II (
94,000) in for some overheating after it spilled the coolant. The original diagnosis was that it was the headgaskets that needed to be replaced for 2 grand. Today I find out the engine is irreparable since the had gasket problem caused more serious internal damage. Quote is now 5 grand to rip it out and put in a used or rebuilt motor that has less mileage on it. Am I getting ripped off, and should I invest $5,000 on a used motor? It just hurts because I really don't even have the money to invest.
Thanks for any words of advice.
Answer -
Hi Leo,
that's terrible news! A Disco II (what year?) with on 94000 miles and your headgasket blows out!
When you took the vehicle into the dealer, did you drive it in or was it towed? If you drove it in, was the only problem that the temperture was uncontrollable or did your engine sound like it was dying a slow death? If your engine was in serious straits, you would have known this every time you turned the engine over. The sound would make any LandRover owner cringe.
If you drove that vehicle in and the engine was running almost normal...I'd suspect your 'chain is being pulled' by those guys.
To replace an engine after a blown headgasket, you would have had to be driving that Disco for sometime with the temperature way off the scale. If it were me, I'd start looking around for a second opinion fast. Tell these guys you don't belive it and that you're going elsewhere for service. Let them know on the way out that if they were lying to you that you'll be contacting LRNA and your state/province consumer protection bureau or state's attorney's office. What a rip!
On the other hand...if you're fairly sure that the engine suffered after the engine's headgaskets were blown, $5000 grand is way too high for a used engine. I've seen them as low as $1800 and as high as $3000. Check this site out for your exact engine:
http://www.car-part.com
I really hope that you are not being cheated. For $5000, do you think its worth a second opinion? I would.
I wish you luck with this. I get so infuriated when I hear about someone being ripped off by a dealership. Take a good look at all of your options before making a decision. Your Disco has low mileage and your engine is probably worth rebuilding. There are experts who can rebuild YOUR engine and for much less than what the dealer quoted you.
Best of luck,
JohnMc
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Latest word on blown engine:
Leo,
I spoke with a LR mechanic about your engine problem. He did agree that if a cylinder sleeve slips down inside the chamber, the engine is useless. Even the slightest amount will ruin the engine. This can be done under extreme heat and most mechanics won't take the time to fix it. I asked if it was possible to repair and he said that it could be but you'd have to find someone willing to do the work.
Most dealerships would just throw out the engine.
I hope this is not the case with yours. Try to find some good mechanics and see if you can salvage your engine. I've heard the same thing about alternators and pumps. Dealer mechanics usually swap in entire replacement parts rather than spend hours breaking down the component and rebuilding it. I've saved 000's by rebuilding my alternator, power steering pump and starter.
My guess is that the dealership would rather the mechanic move on to other vehicles in need of quick repairs instead of working on a component that may or may not be repaired.
I hope you can find a mechanic that can help you out,
Best of luck,
JohnMc
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Leo,
here's two names I've found for LR repairs in Northern California:
Sean Murphy:
helosean@hotmail.com
AND
Ellworth Brothers in Mountain View (you'll have to look this company up in the yellow pagese)
Just say Chris Dow gave them as good references!
BEST OF LUCK,
JohnMc
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Hi Leo,
thanks for the details. I spoke about your problem with an engineer friend of mine. This fellow has been around cars since he could crawl...well...a long time. He use to own a formula 1 race school, so he knows engines.
He told me its possible that you are being mislead. Most times, when you can drive the vehicle into a shop after the head gasket has blown, unless the block was cracked (block check), the engine can be rebuilt. A good mechanic could strip down the engine, plane out the block, clean up the cylinders, replace any damage (like the sleeve you mention) and still be under $2000 (labour included).
The block is the key here. IF the blocks not cracked then the rest of the engine can be salvaged and repaired. A misfire is understanable after any head gasket has blown. Coolant is going to mix in with the oil and go everywhere it can. Its possible that some cyl.damage can happen. You just need to find a mechanic that's capable of rebuilding.
Even in the worst case, you re-bore the cylinders and rebuild from there. The cost to perform this is still insignificant compared to the rest of the work involved.
We are of the opinion that this fellow may be out to make a fast 5 grand.
Oh yes, before I forget, most engines will have "low miles" and be "well-maintained". Unless you are buying the engine from your brother or the local church parrish, take these 'qualities' with some suspicion.
Keep the Disco and try to rebuild the engine. Find another mechanic who'll do it for you. Once rebuilt, it has to meet the manufacturer spec's. You'll have taken care of the engine and it should last much more than the 94000 miles that you had.
IF you buy a different engine, you have no idea of where it actually came from, how it was maintained and how long that engine will last (at least 6 months). After the 6 months, you are entirely on your own.
One other point I'll make. Disco series II engines have been known to have problems with sticking exhaust valves. Anytime after 50,000 miles, the carbon deposits build up on the valves and it starts to rob the engine of power. Eventually, a costly valve job has to be performed to restore engine's power (~$2000). Meanwhile, you're at the mercy of a mechanics, who are trying to solve the problem - you hope.
If you buy the 67000 mile engine....its possible that you may eventually be doing a valve job. Then there's all the complications that a sticking valve can cause. Some dishonest dealers can string an owner along for years with repairs that don't really address the problem. Then, when its clear the valve job is needed, they cash out with the $2000 repair job (sort of a 'brass ring'). I'm usually not this cynical, but I've seen many owners being ripped off.
You're fortunate to live in an area that is well-populated. Many LR owner's I've help are stuck 100's of miles from the nearest LR dealer. You'll have no trouble finding a reputable mechanic.
Here's where networking comes into play...
I was never sure if San Jose is Northern California or Southern....middle? I've been there a few times, lived in L.A for awhile...nothing like the Bay area.
Here's the website for the Northern California Land Rover owner's association:
http://www.norcalrover.org/
Here's the Southern Cal. Land Rover association:
http://www.sclr.org/
(Now you're covered!)
Go to one of these sites and make contact with a local owner. Explain your situation and ask for help to find an experienced, trustworthy mechanic. I'm sure someone will have a leads for you.
It pays to belong to one of these clubs. These guys know LR vehicles and are generous in helping others with problems. We've all been in your position. That's one of the reason's why I've been volunteering for so long.
If you've never taken your Disco off-road...this guys will help you out with that too! Once your Disco is repaired, that is.
Best of luck, Leo. Drop me an email and let me know how things work out. jmcinnis64@hotmail.com
Yours in LandRover ownership (and repair!)
JohnMc
