QuestionHi, I have a 1982 honda CB900C and I have a charging prob. I replaced: battery,regulater/rec.,ignition switch and the stater.The bat still won't charge. Could it be the brushes for the stater?
When it's running the lights get brighter if I rev it and I took a volt meter the bat. was @11.V at idle. at higher rpm. gos to about 12.1V
Well hope you can help thanks frank.
AnswerHi Frank,
Output voltage is below specs.
The brushes could be part of the problem. Brushes when new are about 3/4" to 1" long.
Here's a couple of files that may assist you. The images are not viewable when presented in this manner. So if it reads kinda funny at times, know this is why. I send these files via email, which is why I request your email address.
Respectfully,
Mark Shively
Electrical Testing Early Honda's
Ignition source Coil
1. With the magneto wiring disconnected, block the breaker points open with a piece of paper such as a business card.
2. Measure the resistance between the ignition source coil wire and ground with a low range ohmmeter. If resistance is about 0.5 ohm, the coil is probably good.
3. If possible, disconnect the ground wire between the ignition coil and the magneto base. Measure insulation resistance between the iron core and the coil. Insulation resistance should be at least 5 Meg ohms.
Condenser
Unless you have a special condenser tester, do this quick test:
Connect the negative lead (-) to the negative terminal of a 6-volt battery, and the positive lead (+) to the positive terminal. Allow the condenser to charge for a few seconds, then quickly disconnect the battery and touch the leads together. If you observe a spark as the leads touch, the condenser is good. Arcing between the breaker points is a common symptom of a defective condenser.
Charging Coil
Measure the resistance from each coil output lead to ground. For most coils, resistance should be in the range of 0.3 to 0.6 ohms. If possible, disconnect the ground wire from each coil, then measure insulation resistance between the coil and ground. Any indication of less than 0.5 Meg ohms means that the coil is shorted. Some magnetos have built-in diodes (rectifiers) for battery charging current. If so, resistance should be very high measured in one direction, and very low in the other (switch leads).
Rectifier
Same as last sentence, high resistance one direction, low the other.
Ignition Coils
1. Measure resistance of between the positive and negative primary terminals (small wires). Resistance should indicate about 5 ohms for most coils of this type. Some have a primary resistance of less than 1 ohm.
2. Measure resistance between either primary terminal, and the secondary high voltage terminal (spark plug wire). Should be between 5K and 11k ohms.
3. Check condition of spark plug cap. Look for cracks, dirt, and defects.
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Triple Phase Full-Wave Rectifiers with Field Coils
This type regulates the alternator output by the current flowing through the field coil. The regulator/rectifier has a voltage regulator for the field coil. The voltage regulator detects the voltage at the battery and feeds current to the base of transistor, turning it ON. When the transistor is ON, the battery feeds current through: ignition switch, field coil, transistor, and ground. The field coil magnetizes the rotor, and the alternator generates power.
When the alternator reaches a certain voltage, the voltage regulator turns off the transistor and cuts off current to the field coil, hence the alternator stops generating power. See illustration below.
AC regulator function:
The AC regulator regulates the voltage to the headlight. Thus, no resistor is required. When the negative output of the charging coil reaches a certain voltage, the AC regulator feeds current to the gate of SCR2 and turns it ON. The SCR2 is shorted and a negative current to the coil regulates its output voltage.
Since the negative output voltage of the charging coil is not used for charging the battery, the AC regulator has no effect on charging the battery.
However, since when the negative output of the coil is cut off the headlight voltage is also cut off, the AC regulator regulates the output voltage to the headlight.
Single Phase, Full-Wave Rectifiers
This type is used on medium engine displacement models. Compared to the half-wave rectifier, the full-wave rectifier is more efficient in using the alternator output for charging the battery.
In order to convert the AC output of the alternator to DC, the diodes are arranged as in the right diagram, inside the regulator/rectifier. When the alternator is positive the current flows through Dl battery D2 and when the alternator is negative the current flows through D3 battery D4 shown by the white arrow and black arrow respectively. In this way, the AC output of the alternator is converted to a DC waveform. This circuit is called the full-wave rectifier and is distinguished from the half-wave rectifier.
Similar to the single phase half-wave rectifier, the full-wave rectifier has a battery voltage feedback method and internal voltage feedback method. The circuit at right uses the battery voltage feedback method.
The voltage regulation is performed by a high frequency ON/OFF cycle of the alternator. When the DC voltage of the
output waveform is measured by a voltmeter, a value smaller
than the peak voltage is measured.
A broken wire in the field coil in this type of system will result in insufficient charging of alternator. If the ground wire of the field coil wire is shorted to ground transistor shorted), the battery will be overcharged.
Be sure that the battery is fully charged before performing this test. The amount of current flow may change abruptly if not sufficiently charged.
For MF battery; use a battery whose voltage between its terminals is greater than 13.0 V. — For conventional battery, use battery whose specific gravity is greater than 1 .27 (200C/68 F).
• When the engine is started using the starter motor, a large amount of current may flow from the battery temporarily. Use the kick starter to start the engine for models equipped with both a starter motor and a kick starter.
CHARGING SYSTEM INSPECTION
LEAK TEST
Turn off the ignition switch, cable from the battery and disconnect the ground (—) cable from the battery.
Connect an ammeter between negative (—) terminal and ground cable.
With the ignition switch off, measure the leakage current.
NOTE:
• When measuring current using a tester, set it to a large range and then bring it down the range to an appropriate level. Current flow larger than the range selected may blow out the fuse in the tester. While measuring current, do not turn the ignition on. A sudden surge of current may blow out the fuse in the tester.
If current leakage exceeds the standard value, a shorted circuit is likely to exist.
Locate the short by disconnecting connections one by one and measuring the current.
CHARGING VOLTAGE INSPECTION
NOTE
• Be sure that the battery is fully charged before performing this test. The amount of current flow may change abruptly if not sufficiently charged.
For maintenance free battery; use a battery whose voltage between its terminals is greater than 13.0 V.
For conventional battery, use battery whose specific gravity is greater than 1 .27 (200C/68 F).
• When the engine is started using the starter motor, a large amount of current may flow from the battery temporarily. Use the kick starter to start the engine for models equipped with both a starter motor and a kick starter.
After warming up the engine, replace the battery with a fully charged battery.
Connect a multitester between the battery terminals.
Connect an ammeter between the terminals of the main fuse.
NOTE
• If the probes are connected in reverse order, the registered current flow direction when charging and discharging the battery will be reversed as well. Refer to the Model Specific manual for proper connection of the multitester.
• Use an ohmmeter that registers both positive and negative current flow. An ammeter which registers in only one direction will measure OA for discharging.
NOTE
• Be careful not to short any wires.
• Although the current could be measured when the ammeter is connected between the battery positive terminal and the positive cabIe, a sudden surge of current to the starter motor could damage the ammeter. Always use the kick starter to start the engine.
• Always turn the ignition off when conducting the test. Disconnecting the ammeter or wires when current is flowing may damage the ammeter.
For models with no tachometer, connect an engine tachometer.
Turn the headlight ON (Hi beam) and start the engine. Gradually increase the engine speed and measure the charging voltage at the specified rpm.
NOTE
• If the charging current and voltage measurements are normal when the battery is replaced with a new battery, it is likely that the original battery's effective life span has passed.
For the following conditions, the problem is most likely related to the charging system. Follow the steps in the trouble-shooting chart.
1.) Charging voltage fails to increase beyond battery terminal voltage and charging current is in the discharging direction.
2.) Both charging voltage and current greatly exceed the standard value.
For conditions other than the ones mentioned above, the problem is most likely associated with an area other than the charging system, conduct the following inspection and follow the troubleshooting chart.
1.) Standard charging voltage/current is reached when the engine rpm exceeds the specified rpm.
• Excessive electric load due to the use of light bulbs beyond the specified rating.
• The replacement battery is old or underrated.
2.) Charging voltage normal but charging current abnormal
• The replacement battery is old or underrated.
• The battery used was undercharged or overcharged.
• Blown out ammeter fuse
• Incorrect connection of ammeter
3.) Charging current normal but charging voltage abnormal
• Blown out voltmeter fuse (Check for faulty fuse by 0 ohm adjustment).
REGULATOR/RECTIFIER INSPECTION
Service according to the troubleshooting chart. Since the regulator/rectifier is an electrical component using semiconductor devices, the component itself is not serviced. Instead, the connector on the regulator/rectifier is checked.
Inspect the regulator/rectifier at the terminals of each connector.
(WIRE HARNESS SIDE)
REGULATOR/RECTIFIER CONNECTOR (WIRE HARNESS SIDE)
REGULATOR/RECTIFIER
Inspection
Battery wire (red/white or red) Check that there is voltage between battery line (+) and ground line.
Ground wire (green) Check continuity between ground and frame.
Voltage detection line (black) (external voltage detection type) Check that there is battery voltage between voltage detection line (+) and ground wire when the ignition is ON.
Charging coil wire (refer to Model Specific manual) Check that the resistance of the coil is within the specified range.
Charging/lighting coil wire (refer to Model Specific manual) Check that the resistance of the coil is within the specified range. (Because the lighting system effects the resistance value, follow the steps below.)
For the charging/lighting coil (charging and lighting shared by a single coil), disconnect the output connector when measuring resistance. The headlight resistance will be included in the ohmmeter measurement if the connector is not disconnected. (If the headlight connector is connected, the measured resistance will be smaller, because the resistance of the headlight is connected in parallel.)
• For lighting systems whose headlight connector is connected to a resistor when the headlight is turned OFF, either disconnect the handlebar switch connector or disconnect the lighting output line of the alternator. (Refer to diagram at right.)
• For lighting systems that have a headlight ON and OFF switch, just turn off the headlight switch. (Refer to diagram
at right.)
• Disconnect the auto-bystarter connector if applicable. (See diagram at right.)
If there is an abnormality in the diagnosis above, check the following:
• Battery wire Broken wire harness (repair or replace)
• Ground wire Broken wire harness (repair or replace)
• Charging coil wire (charging/lighting coil wire)
Check the charging coil (charging/lighting coil) of the alternator.
CONNECTOR (Disconnected)
If the resistance value of the alternator is normal lie the resistance value measured by the above method is different from the alternator resistance), check for a broken or shorted wire harness between the regulator/rectifier and alternator or for poor connection at alternator connector.
