QuestionHi John -
What is the difference between the PTO switch at the console, and what you are referencing as: "PTO Isolator Switch in the PTO Harness" is this one in the same? Or are you suggesting an additional switch added? Or are you suggesting that I replace the existing PTO Switch?
Thank - Kent
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Followup To
Question -
Thanks John for taking the time with me. I really appriciate your level of understanding & your patience with my lack of understanding.
1. I'd like to recap what I have learned see if I'm messed up. Because my Voltage at the battry was 14.2v with the motor on, deck off(PTO-off). This would indicate that the voltage regulator isn't the problem - Correct?
2. I'd like to go back to this segment from one of the first emails we discussed---- (note my comments in brackets)
recall:
(A. Use a Volt Meter Set to VDC and with the Engine Running at Full Throttle, Read the Battery Voltage. It should Read Between 13.0VDC and 14.5VDC. ---(It did 14.2vdc!)
B. If the Regulator is Bad is will Usually Show Less than 12.0VDC. ---(So the Regulator isn't bad?)
C. If the Voltage is Not Higher than 13.0VDC,
--(It was higher!!)
C.1. then Disconnect the Regulator from the Stator and Check the VDC on the Stator.
(N/A - because of the IF/THEN statement of C.)
C.2. It Should be About 16.0VDC or Higher. Some May Read 15.0VDC but No Lower.
(N/A - because of the IF/THEN statement of C.)
If Either of these are Bad, I Suggest it be Replaced. (not sure)
If the Stator is Not a 16Amp Stator, then Replace the Bad Stator with a 16Amp Stator.
(Not sure how to measure the voltage on this, yet - I'm assuming the purple wire is the stator wire? From the pictures of the engine of the last email, I wasn't clear from what was said:
"The Wire that Goes Under the Shroud and Flywheel is the Stator Wire. It Supplies the Current to the Rectifier/Regulator. The Other 2 Wires, One is for the Headlights and the Other is for the Battery. You can View a Breakdown of the Engine and Mower at this Addy http://www.partstree.net/parts.asp"
(From this statement, I'm assuming the purple wire is the one to the stator? How do I check the voltage with that single wire?)--- I found the diagram difficult to really understand which wire was what. An electrical diagram would be easier to read than a picture sometimes. But thanks for all your help!))
Summary:
Also, thanks for suggesting that the contact cleaner would be a waste also. What about a bad switch at the dash? Could that cause a hard start---just two days ago, again with the PTO attached at the start, it took three or four trys of the turn of the key to turn the motor over. Without the PTO, harness plugged in, first turn of the key. ---Whats left in my mind is verifying the stator, but from the original email, it seems like the IF/THEN statements in Section C --a breakdown of your original email, showed me that the Battery was the first to measure. if it was OK then the regulator was ok. Otherwise dig deeper into the stator, etc. But because the battery & regualtor seemed ok, then not to test the stator---Is this correct logic?
Sincerely,
Kent Littlejohn
P.s. I'm having fun--its a learning experience! -- hope you are too-still!
God Bless!
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Followup To
Question -
One more thought:
Today a friend suggested cleaning the contacts of the wiring harness, and switch with Contact cleaner. I think that may make sense to try also. If it comes down to replace the PTO Electric Clutch... ...have you heard of any third party or after market parts vendors which offer good quality for discounted pricing vs. OEM?
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Followup To
Question -
Hi John,
I was able to get photos today, let me know if you want any other photos.
I couldn't figure out how to upload the pictures to your space on the link. So, I uploaded them to my free URL:
http://www.photodex.com/sharing/viewshow.html?fl=2659498&alb=0 ( You should be able to just click this link and go right to 6 photos in a slide show format - click (LOOP ALL).
If you get prompted for anything, you can from the main URL www.photodex.com click the link at the top (Online Sharing) then view member collection at the member name field enter "kdl7879" <minus the quotes>. At which point you should be able to see the Scotts tractor Slide show. The other slide show is a presentation for my mother & father in laws anniversary if you want to view that its about 25 minutes. And you need a strong bandwidth.
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Followup To
Question -
Mr. Bridgers:
Thanks for taking the time to respond:
The Scotts/John Deere tractor is a:
Scotts S2348 (23hp? / 48deck)
Product ID number: M02348s023167
engine ser: 3008913601
Purchased: 12-31-02
Engine: Kohler / Engine Model: CV22S
Horsepower: 21hp - (according to oper.manual)
I'd be glad to email you a digital photo of the regulator so you may be able to tell me what is what? (it appears one wire goes to the housing of the engine where it mounts to the frame, another smaller wire (purple) heads towards the front and tuck under the top housing, another couple of wires are wrapped in a casing and tucks in under the top housing. There are three leads with wiring crimps holding the three wires on. The three leads are labeled (left to right)--(AC / B+ / AC). The wiring is confusing to me, not sure what goes to what.
I was able to have someone help me understand what you wanted me to do on the first email, I was a bit confused at first, still not sure about the stator.
Today with the mower on, I measured the battery at 14.2 vDC this was without the PTO engaged. (Didn't really think to engage it and measure VDC at that point) --- your email lead me to believe that IF the battery voltage was between 13.0vDC - 14.5vDC then this would indicate the Voltage Regulator is ok? Since the battery measures at 14.2 does this mean the regulator is OK? From there I'm lost, however --- I don't know which wire goes to the Stator, battery or Ground.
Thanks for you patience.
Sincerely,
Kent Littlejohn
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Followup To
Question -
Mr. Bridgers:
On a scale of 1 to 10. 10 being your level of knowledge, and 1 being mine. I'm curious where I might find the regulator and the stator? Perhaps a diagram link from the web? Tractors for Dummys? (for me -- just kidding).
The one thing I'm not exactly sure is, why would the dummy light on the dash show that its struggling for juice, with a brand new battery, while its running with the deck engaged?
I'll bring your email to the neighborhood service center, and ask if they could explain it to me. Unless, you may be able to break it down in a way that I may be able to understand it better. Thanks,
Kent Littlejohn
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Followup To
Question -
Mr. Bridgers,
I'm told according to a John Deere Service center in our area, that the reason my S2348 Scotts yard tractor Battery dummy light comes on when engaging the PTO to start the mower deck, and when running it with the lights on, and when I try to start it, and after three years of service I'm on my third battery that either the voltage regulator is going bad, or the Eletric PTO clutch is going bad. My guess after unplugging the electric PTO harness, and trying to start it, the battery light didn't struggle as much to start it. Also, gave it another 24 hours, and tried to start it, it came right up first turn of the key, without any dummy light issues persay. Plugged the PTO clutch in, and tried to start it, it took three tries to turn the key to start the motor and the Battery light struggled. With the PTO and running lights, the battery light stayed lit. I'm trying to find a way to avoid spending 250+ from John Deere service centers, by perhaps finding an aftermarket solution for either a voltage regulator, or an Eletric PTO clutch ---pending what you would diagnos or recommend. I'd appriciate any imput you may have, or troublshooting recommendations that I may need to preform yet. Thanks - Kent Littlejohn
Answer -
Hello Kent:
Most of my Customers have a Switch Installed to Isolate the PTO Harness until the PTO is Required. Several have Replaced the Regulators, because They were Burnt Out and No Current was Coming from the Stator. They Also Installed a Switch to Isolate the PTO Harness. To Check the Voltage: 1- Use a Volt Meter Set to VDC and with the Engine Running at Full Throttle, Read the Battery Voltage. It should Read Between 13.0VDC and 14.5VDC. If the Regulator is Bad is will Usually Show Less than 12.0VDC. If the Voltage is Not Higher than 13.0VDC, then Disconnect the Regulator from the Stator and Check the VDC on the Stator. It Should be About 16.0VDC or Higher. Some May Read 15.0VDC but No Lower. If Either of these are Bad, I Suggest it be Replaced. If the Stator is Not a 16Amp Stator, then Replace the Bad Stator with a 16Amp Stator. It will Better Serve you. From the Diagnostic You Did, I have to Agree With You. The PTO is the Problem. Hope this Helps. Let me know what Happens, Please. I Really Enjoy Knowing the Outcome. Thanks.
Good Luck
Respectfully
John
Answer -
Hello Kent:
1- From What Ive seen, there is a Problem Somehere in the PTO Harness and/or the PTO that Draws Current even when it is Not engaged. Not to Put Scotts Down but this is Not all that Common. I have Seen it Maybe a Dozen Times in the Past few Years. 2- If the Voltages are Within the Limits I gave you then they Should be Good. However, the Stator is Located Under the Blower Housing and Under the Flywheel. Send me the Make, Model, Type and Code Numbers Off of the Engine and I can Locate a Breakdown of the Engine for you to View Online. You May Find a Breakdown at this Addy http://shop.briggsandstratton.com/BShopProductListingPage.asp?rsvp=0&PARENTID=0& Provided it is a Briggs Engine. Hope this Helps. Let me know what Happens, Please. I enjoy knowing the Outcome. Thanks.
Good Luck
Respectfully
John
Answer -
Hello Kent:
You can Send me Pics at My MSN Space (http://answermanjbridger54.spaces.live.com/personalspace.aspx?_c02_owner=1). This is for Pictures Only. I delete the Pictures after we are Finished with them. Thanks.
Respectfully
John
Answer -
Hello Kent:
I have Located a Breakdown of the Engine Electrical System. From the Pictures I Viewed and the Breakdown, I think I know how to Help. The Wire that Goes Under the Shroud and Flywheel is the Stator Wire. It Supplies the Current to the Rectifier/Regulator. The Other 2 Wires, One is for the Headlights and the Other is for the Battery. You can View a Breakdown of the Engine and Mower at this Addy http://www.partstree.net/parts.asp and Click the Parts Look Up. Then Select the Kohler Engines. and Enter the Complete Model Number. Click Search. Scroll down to your Engine and Click on the Engine Numbers. Then Select the Illustrated Parts File. Then Click on the Ignition/Electrical Folder. Hope this Helps. Let me know what Happens, Please. I enjoy knowing the Outcome. Thanks.
Good Luck
Respectfully
John
Answer -
Hello Kent:
I didnt Suggest the Contact Cleaner because I have tried it over the Years and it has Never Worked. But, there is a First Time for Everything. Give it a Try. Thanks for Bring that up. I will Add it to my Notes. In the Shop After the 4th or 5th Time we Dont try Anymore, But it is an Option that May work Sometimes and will Save People Money. For a Reasonable Price Contact Michelle @ outdoor distributors (205-669-2500) or Their Web Page @ http://www.outdoordistributors.com/. She can give you a Good Price and the Shipping Charges. If you Dont Mind, would you Tell Her John @ All Experts told you about them. I Talk to them about Once a Week about Items for Questioners While Im Doing Research for Some of the Questions Im Asked. They have given me some Really Good Prices for the People Asking Questions at this Site. You will need the Part Number for the PTO. You can View a Breakdown of the Engine and Mower at this Addy http://www.partstree.net/parts.asp and Click the Parts Look Up. Then Select the Kohler Engines. and Enter the Complete Model Number. Click Search. Scroll down to your Engine and Click on the Engine Numbers. Then Select the Illustrated Parts File. Then Click on the Ignition/Electrical Folder. There is a Prt Number Listed in the Bottom Box. Hope this Helps. By the Way, Are we having Fun Yet? LOL. This is the Type of Problems that Give Most Mechanics a Headache. Hang in there, We will Get it Before Long. Let me know what Happens, Please. I enjoy knowing the Outcome. Thanks.
Good Luck
Respectfully
John
Answer -
Hello Kent:
No Worries. I Always Enjoy Helping Others Learn and even Now, Im Still Learning. Since the Regulator is Showing 14.2 VDC, then the Stator is Good. The Stator Supplies the Current to the Regulator. If the Regulator Voltage had Been Low, then you would have Needed to Check the Stator. Everything that you have done is what a Few of my Customers did Also. Then they Installed the PTO Isolator Switch in the PTO Harness. I have to Admit this is a Problem that I Honestly cant Explain. All I can do is Relate what Others have had me do to Correct this Problem without a Huge Expense and yet have the Mower Function as it Should. You can try the Switch. It May Work, but if it Does it will be the First Time that I have had this to be the Problem. Most Times the Switch will cause the PTO to Kick On and Off While Operating the Mower or Not Work at All. Again, Anything is Possible and I have seen some Crazy thing while Working on Small Engines. Hope this Helps. Let me know what Happens, Please. I enjoy knowing the Outcome. Thanks.
Good Luck
Respectfully
John
Answer Hello Kent:
You are Correct. I am Talking about the Switch in the Console. The Only Difference is you Install a Heaver AMP Switch than Supplied by the OEM. Remove the Old Switch and Go to an Electrical Parts Store. Most of them can Match the Switch for you. Sorry for the Misunderstanding. Hope this Helps. Let me know what Happens, Please. I enjoy knowing the Outcome. Thanks.
Good Luck
Respectfully
John
