QuestionQUESTION: Hi Barry,
I’m mainly interested in Michelin tire Pilot Sport A/S Plus repair affects.
I have not found any information on the Michelin web site. I do not see any mention of loss of warranty or speed rating in their document with proper repair: http://www.michelinman.com/media/en-US/pdf/tires/michelin-2007-limited-warranty. Maybe I missed it. However I’m hearing that most manufactures lower the speed rating to Q and loss of warranty. Can you shine some light on the subject?
I have found information on Dunlop :
Dunlop, they state “NOTE: Dunlop does not warrant any inspection or repair process. The repair is entirely the responsibility of the repairer. Repairs void all warranties. Do not exceed posted speed limits on any repaired tire. Speed Ratings are voided if tires are repaired. “
http://www.dunloptires.com/care/damage.html
One of the most popular tire stores is claiming this is not so with proper repair. Is a repaired tire safe in the 120’s? Since it is common for tire stores to have road hazard insurance, is it unreasonable to request tire replacement instead of tire repair even it the repair is expectable by standards?
Thanks
ANSWER: Mike,
Let's start off with the backend first.
If you apply a patch over a hole, is that going to perform just as well as the original would have? Obviously not. A hole represents a stress concentrator and even adding more material to "bridge" the hole, doesn't change the fact that there is still a hole there.
So, maintaining a speed rating after a tire has been repaired is a matter of how much risk are we talking about - and there is some disagreement about how to handle this.
There one camp that says that the tire is overdesigned to such an extent that a single repair doesn't affect the performance enough to be concerned about.
Then there is the other camp that says that since the tire has been degraded, you can't expect the manufacturer to back the product anymore - AND he is obligated to warn users of that fact in ways he would understand - by voiding the warranty and voiding the speed rating.
And, of course, there are in between these 2 extremes.
But this all about risk. You can get tires to perform adequately after repair, but there are 3 things that have to be considered.
1) A certain percentage of repairs will be done poorly
2) Even properly repaired tires have an increased risk of failure.
3) The more highly stressed a tire is, the more likely it is to fail - and a repaired tire is more susceptible to this axiom.
But I think your last sentence is the question you really want to have answered - is it reasonable to expect a speed rated tire to be replaced instead of repaired.
Yes, it is. If you read the insurance policy, I'm sure there is a clause that covers this situation. So even though it might be prudent to replace the tire, the tire shop that sells the policy is only obligated to replace the tire if it is unrepairable (or however it is worded) - and that is the basis behind the policy and how the cost was calculated.
If the policy included replacement of speed rated tires every time they were punctured, the cost would be higher.
So this gets down to what it was you paid for, not the issue of whether speed rated tires can be repaired or not.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Thanks for the response Barry.
“If you apply a patch over a hole, is that going to perform just as well as the original would have? Obviously not. A hole represents a stress concentrator and even adding more material to "bridge" the hole, doesn't change the fact that there is still a hole there.” I personally would agree, but the TIA and RMA seem to disagree:
article from the TIA regarding this: http://www.retread.org/PDF/Rolwing.pdf I don’t have access to their data, but it appears they have done extensive testing??
“And, of course, there are in between these 2 extremes.” An oh my is it confusing what protection the consumer is really getting.
“3) The more highly stressed a tire is, the more likely it is to fail - and a repaired tire is more susceptible to this axiom.” I guess the TIA and RMA disagree?
“But I think your last sentence is the question you really want to have answered - is it reasonable to expect a speed rated tire to be replaced instead of repaired.
Yes, it is. If you read the insurance policy, I'm sure there is a clause that covers this situation. So even though it might be prudent to replace the tire, the tire shop that sells the policy is only obligated to replace the tire if it is unrepairable (or however it is worded) - and that is the basis behind the policy and how the cost was calculated.”
This is only part of the question. When a consumer purchases a tire the sales people stresses the need to put at least the same rated tire the vehicle the manufacture recommends. However, they in turn fail to state a repair negates the speed rating when they repair the tire. In fact, the tire store I personally do business with states the speed rating is maintained if proper repair RMA guidelines are followed. Firestone, Dunlop and others clearly state any repair negates the speed rating. However Michelin is in agreement with the TIA and RMA with maintaining speed ratings. Goodyear seems to keep the rating for one repair.
“So this gets down to what it was you paid for, not the issue of whether speed rated tires can be repaired or not.”
I must not have clearly stated the question. I noticed you have a background with tire testing and the question is more about speed rating being maintained. In my book, if the tire does not maintain the speed rating it should be communicated and advised not to be repaired and placed back on the car without the consumer being made aware of the risk. There are some manufactures that clearly state speed rated tires are not repairable period. The warranty booklet is not supplied with tire purchase for the tires I have bought over the last 20years outside of buying a new car.
In your testing, what were your results? Why do some manufactures completely disagree with the TIA and RMA? Is it solely liability?
Michelin’s Response:
Name of the document is “Tire Fitment Guide”. He/they said that Michelin is in agreement with Tire Industry Association (TIA) and the Rubber Manufacture Association (RMA) repair guidelines.
I will type the response. I left off the Tire Inspection section that references the TIA.
Begin Quote “
Repairing Speed-Rated Tires
Repairing speed-rated tires is permitted with the following conditions:
• ¼” diameter or less per RMA procedure
• Maximum (3) repairs to an individual tire,
• Each repair location minimum of 90 degrees apart.
• No additional repair can be made if first or second repair is not an approved RMA repair type. If non-RMA type, scrap tire.
Retread Speed-Rated Tires
If a speed-rated tire is retreaded, the speed rating is no longer valid.
“ End Quote
Thanks
ANSWER: Mike,
Let me approach this from a different angle:
ALL tires REGARDLESS OF THE MANUFACTURER can be successfully repaired and returned to service and perform adequately, including speed rated tires used in high speed operation.
However, there is an occasional properly repaired tire that fails whose failure source is the repair and these tires fail at a rate higher than unrepaired tires. There is no good explanation for this phenomenon except to say that tires that have been repaired must have been operated in an underinflated condition.
So how does one properly state this and advise the consumer of this? This has been a discussion point for many many years. I've been involved in those discussions with all the groups you've mentioned.
Michelin's response is probably closest to a technical assessment. They obviously don't feel particularly vulnerable to the legal liability.
Dunlop's response is basically a legal denial of responsibility - the furthest thing from a technical assessment.
The "most popular tire store"'s response is more a reflection of their ability to deflect any legal liability back onto the tire manufacturer - and if the store you are referring to is who I think it is, they insist on a legal document from each tire manufacturer accepting responsibility for these cases.
So there you have it. Technically, the tire can be successfully repaired. However, there is an increased risk - albeit very low. You should notice that as time goes on, more and more tire manufacturers will be changing the wording in their warranty to reflect this issue.
Let me quote Kevin Rohlwing of the Tire Industry Association (BTW, I have worked with Kevin and he is a pretty decent person, so I don't feel bad about pointing this out):
"By definition, a repair restores the original condition,
so the original speed rating is retained."
No, that is not true. The hole is still there. And even if a section repair would be made it has not restored the tire to the original condition. No matter what you do, the tire has been altered in some way.
Needless to say, this is a complex issue with lots of nuances. Many of the points will continue to be debated for a long time.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Thanks Barry this information is exactly what I’m interested in.
I’m not sure I follow this:
“The "most popular tire store"'s response is more a reflection of their ability to deflect any legal liability back onto the tire manufacturer - and if the store you are referring to is who I think it is, they insist on a legal document from each tire manufacturer accepting responsibility for these cases.”
The particular store I’m referring to is Discount Tire.
How is the tire retailer able to deflect legal liability back to the tire manufacture? Do they have agreements that override the standard warranty documents supplied by the tire manufacture? For example, the tire manufactures that state a repaired tire loses its speed rating; a tire retailer like Discount Tire has a legal document that overrides the tire manufactures public warranty documentation? Are you saying the tire retailer has legal documentation that states the tire manufacture must handle a repaired tire the same as unrepaired tire claim?
I thought the responses I received from the tire retailer were out of ignorance. Then I thought they were going by the RMA documentation and ignoring the tire manufactures documentation. Now it appears they might have waivers from the tire manufactures.
Thanks
AnswerMike,
Obviously, I am not an attorney, but I do have some experience from dealing with the legal situation.
First, you need to be aware that there is a difference between "Warranty" and what is called "Product Liability". Look both these terms up in Wikipedia to get more detail, but briefly, tire warranties only cover the product and the Product Liability covers the situation where the product causes damage beyond the tire itself.
Lawsuits involving tires are usually Product Liability. These are complicated, expensive, usually involve a vehicle accident where injury or death has occurred, and frequently involve tires with repairs.
When a tire is repaired, it has been altered in some way. It is a legal conundrum about where responsibility lies among the tire manufacturer, the repair material manufacturer, the person doing the repair, and the owner of the tire. Most of what you are reading is a reflection of the product liability side of things.
When we are dealing with "Warranty", there's not a lot of money involved and the situation is easier to deal with. Nevertheless, the issue about warranty coverage on repaired tires generates a lot of discussion.
Editorial comments: The US civil legal system is all about money. Lawyers take cases because they believe they can make a lot of money. They go after the folks who have lots of money, and the problem of who is actually responsible is just a minor problem to be maneuvered around.
Unfortunately, juries are sympathetic to a plaintiff that has suffered some sort of injury and tend to find ways to compensate the plaintiff - even if it means finding someone at fault who isn't.
This means tire manufacturers are a target of opportunity, as is anyone with deep pockets, such as a large retailer. Smaller retailers and tire repair material manufacturers less so, and industry groups such as the TIA, the RMA, and the Tire and Rim Association are almost immune (no money!)
End of Editorial comments:
In particular, tire shops who make tire repairs are somewhat vulnerable from a product liability point of view - particularly if they do not follow the RMA's recommended repair practice.
But what if they do follow the published RMA repair method? This is the conundrum!
Side note: If you read the actual repair procedure published by the TIA you will see it is exactly the same as the RMA procedure - and usually credits the RMA who is the source.
Additional side note: It might not be clear that the RMA IS the tire manufacturers - and the folks that write the repair procedures are the same folks who write the warranties. The difference is that each tire manufacturer has a slightly different take on how to best defend a product liability case. You will notice that contained within the RMA document on repair is a statement about consulting the tire manufacturer about what happens to the speed rating when a tire is repaired. In some respects this avoids the problem of the differences and allows the RMA to publish this guideline.
Back on topic:
A large retailer has a great deal of leverage with a tire manufacturer and can extract all kinds of concessions - including product liability agreements. If a large retailer has such a document, then they would feel pretty safe making statements because they don't have to defend them.
This is the basis of my comment.
OK, to sum up, let me repeat what I wrote earlier:
"ALL tires REGARDLESS OF THE MANUFACTURER can be successfully repaired and returned to service and perform adequately, including speed rated tires used in high speed operation."
"However, there is an occasional properly repaired tire that fails whose failure source is the repair and these tires fail at a rate higher than unrepaired tires. There is no good explanation for this phenomenon except to say that tires that have been repaired must have been operated in an underinflated condition."
This is the technical side of things.
BTW, when I use the words "speed rated tires", I am referring to H and higher speed rated tires. In my book, it is easy to make an S rated tire and a T rated tire isn't much of a stretch. Besides there is a natural gap between T and H - the U speed rating.
If you want to know why, read this:
http://www.geocities.com/barrystiretech/speedratings.html
Back on topic:
Much of what you will see published on repairs is a reflection of the product liability side of things - it's a subject that can not be avoided.
Hopefully, I've been able to shed some light on the situation.
