QuestionQUESTION: Hi Roland, I wrote to you a few weeks ago about my daughters Lebaron dying while driving on the freeway and now won't start. Sadly I haven't had much time to work on it but I did get a chance to look at it again today and I still can't figure out the problem. I metered the "T" plug today and had my wife turn the key. I get 12 volts for only a second or two, and then it drops off. I don't get anything from the coil and it appears to meter out correctly, but that is probably because I don't get constant voltage from the "T" plug. I know there is some capacitor test that some people do, but honestly I don't have a clue how to wire that up. I have to believe it is something simple. (I don't get any trouble codes-just "55", I can hear the fuel pump come on for a couple of seconds when the key is turned to 'on', and all the fuses are good.) I have even swapped out the relays and it still won't start. Of course, the battery has died after all this trouble-shooting. And the alarm/theft light comes on after trying to start it ever 5 or 6 attempts. So we have to turn the door lock to 'unlock' and we can continue trying to start the car. I hope you can help and I do appreciate your assistance. I am pretty frustrated but i need to get this car going
ANSWER: Hi Jim,
The history is complex and probably to much to sort out again. Tell me whether the 12 volts on the T plug cross-piece that you correctly notice only lasts for a second (which is normal): does it return during a subsequent 5 second crank of the engine and remain until your helper releases the starter? Also, this is a convertible not a 4-door, correct? And you are sure you don't have spark? And the engine shows no sign of catching?
Roland
HISTORY
Hi Jim,
QUESTION: Hi Roland, I wrote to you about my daughters 92 Lebaron LX that won't start. In your last e-mail you asked me to meter the 41 fuse, and the ASD relay for 12 volts. Well I go a chance to check both and they do not have 12 volts. What should I check or do next?
ANSWER: Hi Jim,
If you have no voltage on 41 then check 47 and also check 48 and 50, and if none of those show voltage then I would believe that the only thing that works is the hazard flashers. If 48 and 50 work, but not 41 and 47 then you have a disconnect of a wire in the box itself. If none of the fuses show voltage but the flashers work, then I would suspect that the torpedo-shaped connector on the black wire that comes from the + post of the battery is 'bad' or is disconnected. If nothing works, even the hazards, the the battery cable clamps are loose, or a wire at one of the clamps is corroded through, or the battery is dead. It is very basic, so check these out and let me know.
Roland
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Roland,to recap what has happened so far: Originally the car died and would not start. Was getting 12 volts to the "T" plug going into the coil, but nothing coming from the coil. Was hearing the fuel pump go on when the key turned on. Had coil tested at auto parts store & it tested good. Was able to get trouble code '55' -thats it. So, I put on a new rotor, distributor cap and spark plug wires. After that,(and trying to start the car several times) it still wouldn't start. But then I couldn't get any voltage at the "T" plug and I could not hear fuel pump when key turned to 'on'. Also, then the 'ant-theft/alarm' kept coming on when we were trying to get the trouble codes, which would not come on. Charged car battery and the anti-theft stopped coming on, but still can't get the trouble codes to come on. You suggested checking the ignition fuse and relay for voltages and here are the results: the 20 amp fuse only has 12 votls when the key is on. The 40 amp ignition fuse has 12 volts both with the key off and on. The ignition relay doesn't have any voltage at all, either with the key on or off. The fuses have all been checked and are good. The relays have been swapped with known working one's. Right now the car turns over but will not start. There is no voltage at the "T" plug at all. Can't get the trouble codes to come on now & do NOT hear the fuel pump come on when the key is turned to 'on'. The wipers work, the lights & flashers come on. Car just won't start. What is next to chrck? Would a new disrbutor pick-up coil be the answer? Also, you don't have the 'rate answer ' on so I have to wait until yo ca take questions again.
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Answer
Hi Jim,
I recall the history, and I'm trying to figure out why you don't have power to the fuel pump relay or the ASD relay and that is why I asked you about fuse 41 (20 amp) because that is what supplies those IF the relay is told to close by the engine controller. If there is no voltage on 41, even if the relays close, the fuel pump won't get power nor will the ASD relay, nor will the engine controller unless fuse 41 has 12 volts on it. So now, if 41 doesn't have 12v is true we have to solve that issue or we won't make any progress. In this 'follow up' you said there is voltage on the 20 and 40 amp fuses but you didn't tell me NUMBERS on the fuse's sockets. I have to ask for your understanding that I can't make sense of what is wrong unless we communicate in detail. Is fuse 41 showing voltage or not? If so, then the pin sockets I described earlier on the ASD relay and the fuel pump relay should be showing 12v (the pin sockets that are adjacent to the edge of the box). Are they?
You could certainly try a new pick-up in the distributor, but I was hoping to see if there is fault code 54 stored in the engine controller so you don't waste money on parts without a valid reason.
So that is why we are looking at voltage questions in hopes of getting voltage such that the check engine light will give us codes.
If the check engine light is not coming on either it is burned out or the engine controller isn't getting power either or it is faulty. You could therefor look at pin 9 of the 60-pin plug to the engine controller to see if it has 12V when the ignition switch is "on".
And pin 3 of that same plug is the one that gets twelve volts from fuse 41 all the time IF fuse 41 has voltage all the time. So you might want to verify that. Once we know the voltage is present on 3 and 9, and we don't get a check engine light at all, then it would be good to check the bulb of the engine light.
So you can perhaps see some logic in what I am asking you to check.
If you want to change the pick-up on the distributor I have nothing against that, I just wouldn't do it until we get these power supply issues verified.
I do answer quickly even though I don't use the thank/rate system. I have objections as to how the Allexpert site excercises quality control over that feature as other 'experts' are playing games to gain advantage in the ratings/recognitions.
This will be my last answer today, but I'll be back tomorrow morning. Please give me the info that I need, as described above so we might get this going again for you daughter.
Roland
QUESTION: Roland, I finally got a chance to work on the 92 Lebaron(died on freeway & won’t restart) I went out & tried to start it today & it wouldn’t d anything when I turned the key. I could not even get the lights on the dash to come on so I figured the battery had died. ( When I would turn the key, nothing would happen at all). Anyway, I got a hold of used distributor (10 bucks) and I swapped out pick-up coil. After that I got another car and used jumper cables but the Lebaron still would not start. In fact, the car Lebaron still wouldn’t do anything at all. No dash light, no starter sound, no beeping. Nothing. So I thought that maybe the battery wasn’t dead. I rechecked the fuses and this time I found the 20 amp mini-fuse for the fuel pump burned out & I replaced it. After that I still couldn’t get the car to start and I still couldn’t get the dash lights to come on either. I then decided to follow your directions and use pins on the alarm wires going to the anti-theft box (above the glove-box). Well, when I opened the glove box, the alarm unit was just hanging down. After looking at the theft unit plastic case, it appears the plastic mounting part had broken off. I wonder if this was the cause of the trouble all along. However, the 21 pin plug seemed to still be plugged in tight, so maybe just a coincidence. I followed your instructions and I put the pins in the two wires (#4 & #5) and touched them together. I didn’t hear the sound of the door locks or anything else so I wasn’t sure if I did it correctly. However, after hitting the pins together, I got the dash lights back on when I would put the key in. Unfortunately, the car would still not start, but now I can hear the fuel pump when the key is turned on. I also get the 12 volts to the “T” plug when the key is on. I see 12 volts at the ASD relay socket all the time, but I only get 12 volts to the 20 amp ignition mini-fuse when the key is turned to on. So, bottom line is this. I am getting 12 volts (to ground) on both parts of the “T” plug that feeds the ignition coil, when the key is turned on. I do hear the fuel pump go on when the key is turned. Oh, and after doing your little trick with the pins at the anti-theft plug, I am now getting the check-engine light to give me the trouble codes again. I only get code “12”, and then “55” now (I checked several times and that is al I get). It was a pain but I rechecked all the fuses in the power center under the hood, and the fuse panel under the driver side dash. All the fuses check out as good. So what does code “12” mean? And what should I do next?
ANSWER: Hi Jim,
See if you are getting spark for a full 5 seconds of cranking, or not. See if the fuel pump runs for the full 5 seconds if you can get a helper to listen for it over the noise of the cranking. Check again for codes after that. The 12 code means the battery power to the engine computer was disconnected sometime in the past 50-100 key cycles, so it probably is not relevant to the no start, only the history. Check the battery clamps and the ground wire attachments at the far ends of the - clamp cable.
I can't recall if this is a 2.5 or a 3.0L but if you don't get spark then check the rotor in the distributor of make sure it conducts. If there is an egr valve on this engine then check to be sure it is closed tightly by moving the valve stem with a tip of a screwdriver inserted in the slot of the stem. Spring-action should close it tightly. If not, then lubricate it with WD-40.
If you have fuel/spark/closed egr then it should start. Be sure the battery is fully charged so that the spark is strong.
Roland
History of the problem:
92 lebaron died while driving/won't restart
Question: QUESTION: Roland, thank you again for all of your patience, I know it can be frustrating trying to help backyard mechanics with limited knowledge and skills. Anyway, I have going over in my mind the sequence of events and I think there are now actually 2 problems with my daughter’s car. After the car died on the freeway, I was able to hear the fuel pump, and I got 12 volts to the “T” plug. I was also able to get the trouble codes to come up, but all I got was code ‘55’ which said there wasn’t a problem. All signs then pointed to the coil, but the guy at the autozone tested it and said it was OK. I guess the autozone guy could be wrong so I shouldn’t completely rule out the coil. Anyway, after I was told the coil was good, I changed the rotor, distributor cap, and spark plug wires. And this is where I think I may have somehow caused the second problem, which may have something to do with the alarm. I say this because it was only after I changed the distributor rotor, cap & spark plug wires that the other problems started. And the new problems were that I couldn’t get the 12 volts at the ‘”T” plug anymore, nor could I get the trouble codes to come up at all, and I could not hear the fuel pump when the key was turned to ‘on’. And every time I tried to start the engine, the anti-theft/alarm light on the dash would start flashing. The anti-theft light would go off when we unlocked the door, but would come back on when we would try and start the car again. At this point I disconnected the negative from the battery in hopes of resetting the alarm like it does on my Ford truck. No luck. I then metered the fuses and checked for voltage on the relay socket in the power control center under the hood. I may have it confused but the power control cover/lid has a diagram of what the fuses & relays are for. Standing in front of the car, with the battery to my right side, and the distributor to my left, I found the power control box in front of the driver, near the battery. There is a 20 amp fuse, which the cover says is for ignition, and it is on the side that is next to the engine, and closest o the radiator. This 20 amp fuse is the one I think you are referring to as the 41-42 fuse, but I can’t find any numbers anywhere on the power box or lid to confirm. I wish I had checked the fuses and relay socket for voltage before changing the distributor cap. I had checked all the fuses to see if they were blown, and they were all good. But I didn’t check them for voltage in the beginning. Anyway, the 20 amp fuse, which I think is the 41-42(marked ignition) ONLY has voltage on it when the key is turned ‘ON”—no voltage with the key off. There is a 40 amp fuse, also marked ignition on the power control box lid, and it has voltage on it with the key turned “ON” and “OFF”. Then there is a relay marked ignition on the power control box lid, and it doesn’t have voltage in the socket on it at all. Either with the key ‘ON’ or ‘OFF’. By the way, when I say voltage, I am only getting about 11.3 volts. I am sure the battery is a little drained with all the attempts to start the car. Now, I might be wrong, but I don’t think the bulb for the ‘check engine’ light is burnt out since it was working fine before I changed the distributor cap, rotor and plug wires. The same thing wth the fuel pump. Everything was working fine before the car died on the freeway so I can’t imagine that a wire broke. I think something simple to find in the ignition system failed when my daughter was driving the car, and then I created another problem while I was trouble-shooting. Perhaps I triggered that anti-theft device to ‘kill’ the ignition so that it has to be reset by the DRBll tool at a dealer, as you mentioned in one of your replies. I did come across a cheap distributor at a junk yard, supposedly from a working Lebaron, that got was totaled in a crash. Perhaps the original trouble was the pick-up coil or a sensor in the distributor. Is there a way to test the pick-up coil and sensors in the distributor? Also, where exactly is the 60 pin connector that you were asking me to check? I would imagine near the PCM, but I’m not sure where that is either. I also wonder if there is a way to reset the alarm without going o the dealer to use their DRB tool. Can I just disable it permanently, or even remove it? I can always get an after-market alarm system. Anyway, I do want to say thank you again for all of your help, I do appreciate it.
ANSWER: HI Jim,
Lets pursue two lines of remedy:
The anti-theft system. As you probably know you can lock/unlock both doors using the door key to clear an alarmed status. So try that to see if the check engine light returns. If not, then drop the glove box down by releasing all the secrews around the door opening and you will find a horizontal bar above the door opening that contains the alarm module. You may want to remove the screws on either end of the bar to gain access to the module's plug. It has a 21-pin natural color plug. DO NOT REMOVE the PLUG. Rather, locate the black/light green wire on pin 5 and the light green/orange wire on pin 18. Use a couple of straight pins to probe through the wires' insulation so as to contact the conductor inside. Then touch the pins together once and separate them. That will disarm the alarm if it is in the alarmed status. Then, while things are getting sorted out do not use the door key to lock up the car, or the power door lock either. Just use the mechanical interior door lock to secure each door so as not reset the alarm again.
Then see if the check engine light works, and if so see if it shows any fault codes.*
Then go to the power box under the hood and remove the fuel pump relay and take a short piece of wire and jump between the rear pin and the front pin of the socket and listen for the fuel pump which should start and run so long as it is jumped. Don't leave it this way or drive this way as that relay is a safety feature but at least this will test whether there is voltage for the pump and whether the pump is working.
Then do the same for the ASD relay, and try to start the car.
If it won't start, see if there are any fault codes.
Do all these steps and then let me know what has happened.
Roland
PS *The PCM is mounted on the left inner fender near the battery and it has the 60-pin plug I was referring to. If the check engine light doesn't return and function then check for voltage as I described in my last email.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Roland, I will try the steps you mention when I get back from church. I am assuming there is a serious reason why you stipulated NOT disconnecting the alarm plug/connector. Does the anti-theft-alarm go into that 'dead-shutdown'that you had mentioned in a previous reply? Is there a way to just get rid of the anti-theft/alarm system so I don't have to deal with it? Also, is there a way to test the pick-up coil and any(all) sensors in the distributor? I would like to test them in the distributor I got from the junkyard before I think about swapping them out with the distributor in my daughters car. Finally, if I did accidentally trigger the anti-theft systems "death-code', is there a way to reset it without going to the dealer?
Answer: Hi Jim,
You 'got it' about pulling the plug. It drives the PCM into a Hard Shutdown from which only a DRB II can revive it. The only way to pull the plug safely is to first get the engine RUNNING and only while it is RUNNING the plug can be safely pulled and the alarm thus disconnected.
The pick-up coil as far as I know is not easily tested electronically. It is photooptic and I am sure it pulses but I have not seen any description of what size pulses to expect out of the sensor. That is why I was trying to get the check engine light up and running to see if either an 11 or a 54 code appears. When you try to start the car with ASD jumped by a wire as described, if it doesn't start, then check for whether you are getting spark at the coil center wire (disconnected from the distributor and held 1/4" from the cylinder head while a helper cranks the engine).
Roland
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Roland, I just went out again and put my meter into the "T" plug as my wife tarted the car. I put the hot lead into the 'cross' part of the "t" and the other lead on a ground. When my wife turned the key to 'on' and tried to star the car I saw a voltage pulse that went up to 12 volts and immediatly dropped off. A couple times, about a second after the first voltage pulse, it pulsed again for 12 volts then dropped off. So, I get a 12 volt spike and then it goes off, and then I get the sike again, and then nothing. It also did this when I put the hot lead into the up and down part of te "T" plug. So I am getting the voltage pulse on both sides of the "T" plug and I have made sure I am NOT accidentally touching both to the meter probe. Also, I do hear the fuel pump come on and it makes two sounds when my wife turns the key to "on".. I wonder if the two 'voltage pulses' I am seeing at the "T" plug are when the fuel pump comes on (when the key is turned to on. Anyway, we can keep turning the key to start but we only get the first two pulses and then we don't see any more voltage at the "T" plug, on either the top cross piece, or the up and down. One more thing, we can only do a couple of start tests and then the theft light blinks on the dash and we have to unlock the door to turn it off. Maybe all connected??
AnswerHi Jim,
There is a possibility that the theft system, when it alarms, is indeed preventing the start to occur. The usual behavior when the alarm has occured is that the engine will start and then die after about 3 seconds when the fuel and spark are cut off by the engine controller.
On the other hand, it may also be that the photo-optic sensor unit in the distributor (which I recall you say you replaced the old distributor with a used one) has gone bad, which also will cause the spark and fuel to not be energized because the engine controller is not getting the two signals that come from that sensor unit. You could check out the distributor sensor unit by measuring the voltage between the tan/yellow wire and the black/light blue wire of the sensor (put fine pins through the insulation to reach the conductors) and also measure the voltage between the gray/black and black/light blue wires in a similar manner. What you need to do is simply turn the ignition switch to the run position and then with a socket and handle on the crankshaft pulley bolt rotate the engine by hand. The voltage should oscillate between 5 and 0.3V if the sensors are good. You can't do this test by using the starter motor because the pulsing is too fast for the meter to detect it.
This is a tough one because you have no spark and it either could be the theft system or the sensors in the distributor(or both?).
One other possibility comes to mind: that the timing belt has broken. You could verify that possibility by simply removing the distributor cap and notice whether the rotor moves when you try the starter. If not, then that would be the basic reason why it won't start. So do check for that.
Let me know what you find.
Roland
