QuestionQUESTION: Hi Roland,
First off I’d like to wish you a Happy New Year. I have communicated with you about this problem on 12/29. This is where I'm up to: I have checked the resistance of the coolant temperature sensor and it measures 41.1k. I know that is higher than you said it should be. I tried to start the car with it unplugged but it didn’t start. I am going to look for a 10k resistor to place across the contacts of the plug just to test. I have ordered a gasket set so I can change the back spark plugs, but haven’t received it yet. When I do the job I plan to replace the distributor also. I tried starting it with the battery charger still connected, it cranked very fast but no start. Any ideas in the meantime?
ANSWER: Hi George,
The fact that the coolant temp sensor reads 41k may be due to the local temp; the spec of 10-14k is for an ambient of 70F. It is supposed to be 20-30K at 32F. So if it isn't below freezing there it may be the case that the resistance is too high, which causes a too lean mixture to sustain an idle.
Aside from cleaning the throttle body as described earlier and watching for fault codes to appear I can't give you any other ideas except changing those rear plugs. Wait on the distributor until you get a code 54, otherwise you may be wasting a lot of money. But I suppose that a weak spark would implicate the coil rather than the cam sensor so that would justify replacing it. But do that as the last resort.
Please let me know how it works out.
Happy New Year!
Roland
PS You may have noticed I dropped out of the 'rating' game as a protest of the Allexpert failure to audit the system. On the last day of December the winner answered only 1 'public' question yet managed to garner 18 nominations. It was a farce.
History-
QUESTION: 1995 Cirrus 2.5 V6 with 128k miles. Engine was running OK. Parked car overnight and next morning won’t start. I can hear the fuel pump run then shut off with the key in on position. It has spark but color of spark is yellow. I’m use to seeing blue spark on other cars so I don’t know if this is normal on this car. When I pulled the plug wires out from the valve cover I noticed the entire spark plug tube for the three front cylinders were filled with oil. Cleaned them out as best I could, cleaned plug wires and tried to start it again. Still won’t start. Changed distributor cap and rotor but still won’t start. Check engine light codes are 12 and 33. I sprayed engine starting fluid into throttle body but still no sign of trying to start. Going to put new spark plugs in front three cylinders but I haven’t done this yet. One thing I had noticed was that for quite some time, (at least a year), I had to crank it excessively long for it to start. Any ideas?
ANSWER: Hi George,
When you don't have a relevant code but a no start situation, I recommend taking a look at the egr valve which if stuck ajar slightly will lean out the mixture and make for hard/no starting.
Here is how I answered a similar situation with the same year and engine, but it has a 32 code which is specific to the egr. But the fact you didn't have that code doesn't mean the problem isn't there.
"My '96 manual for the car says there is an egr on all the engines for the Cirrus so the code would be applicable and relevant to your '95. It is saying that when the engine control module tests the egr it doesn't seem to function, which usually means the EGR valve is stuck, most likely ajar. So you need to try and get it freed up and moving again so that it will be closed when the engine is shut down, otherwise it will be difficult to start and to idle.
The first thing I would do is check the mechanical function of the egr valve which is located along a pipe that runs from the left exhaust manifold (on the side of the engine facing the front of the car) to the intake manifold area (where the incoming air in the large rubber tube enters the throttle). That valve is metal and has a round fitting with a vacuum hose attached, mounted on the top of the valve, and the round part is attached to the main body of the valve by a sort of saddle. Inside the open saddle you will see a metal rod (with a slot) that connects the round top fitting to to the valve body. That rod is a stem on the valve and it is supposed to go in and out in response to the engine vacuum which varies with RPM and throttle opening (gas pedal position). Take a spray can of WD-40 or other penetrating lubricant and spray the stem where it enters the valve body and then use a regular screwdriver blade tip inserted in the slot to lever the valve in and out to try and free up its motion. Also check all the rubber vacuum hoses associated with the valve and a nearby vacuum solenoid valve. If the valve seems to open (against the action of a spring) and close firmly by the spring action when using the screwdriver blade to facilitate the motion, then you should be able to now start the engine. You can, once it is idling, check that the valve stem moves when you rev the engine from idle to 2500 rpm and back to idle. If it still won't start, then removing and cleaning the interior of the valve, or buying a new one if it seems too crudy and corroded inside, is the next step to getting the engine to start. In the absence of any code other than 32 this is the best approach to getting the car to start."
The 12 just means the battery power to the computer was removed sometime in the past 50-100 key starts, and the 33 is about the a.c. clutch not engaging.
So give that egr a look and let me know. Best of luck.
Roland
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QUESTION: Hi Roland,
The EGR valve feels smooth and it closes well. I installed three new spark plugs in the front cylinders and it still won’t start. It does sputter on the first try, but subsequent tries show nothing. By the way, I failed to mention that I had disconnected the battery after the car wouldn’t start the first time so I probably inadvertently cleared some important codes. I then read the codes 12 and 33 after reconnecting the battery and trying to start the car. Is it possible that the spark isn’t getting there at the right time? Any other thoughts?
ANSWER: Hi George,
Sorry to hear that the egr wasn't the cause. The possibly erased faulty item, were it still relevant, would likely come back in the code readout during cranking so I wouldn't be concerned about having erased the codes.
How did the plugs that you removed appear to you. Worn out badly? How long have they been in (miles)? I can send you the details on changing the rear ones which I know is a hassle.
How about the battery? Since you mention the color of the spark, that battery may be having too low a voltage while it is also cranking on the starter motor. How old is it compared to its warranty? Can you put a charger on it overnight and then try it when the temps outside are reasonable?
The issue with the distributor being involved is of course the cost for replacing it. Even a rebuilt is over $200 so you don't want to get into that without good reason.
How about cleaning the throttle body throat, plate (both sides), and air by-pass passage way? That might help too.
I would exhaust the simple things, wait for a new code to show. You might check to make sure the coolant temp sensor is reading about 10,000 ohm as it sits (cold), across its terminals.
I hope some of these suggestions will do the trick.
Roland
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QUESTION: Hi Roland,
I would appreciate the details on changing the rear spark plugs. The three that I removed didn’t look worn, but one had a lot of deposits on the negative electrode. I have changed these before, not sure of the mileage. The rears have never been changed by me anyway. I put this distributor in a while ago, it’s from AutoZone with a lifetime warrentee so I think I can get another free. Should I replace it? I’ll follow your other recommendations. Thanks.
Answer: Hi George,
It might be premature to ask for a replacement, and they might want to test it anyway before giving you a new one. Do check out the battery cranking voltage level as that may be all that is wrong with the spark.
Here is the procedure to change the rear plugs:
Here are the steps for removing and replacing the plugs on cyl 1,3,and 5 of the 2.5L V-6:
Disconnect negative cable from auxiliary jumper terminal (I believe this is the ground wire tied to the strut tower on the driver's (left) side of the car).
Unplug the connectors from the MAP sensor and (just to its front) the intake air temp sensor.
Remove the plenum support bracket bolt located rearward of the MAP sensor
Remove the bolt holding the air inlet resonator (the thing with words "multi-point injection") to the intake plenum.
Loosen throttle body air inlet hose clamp
Release snaps holding air cleaner housing cover housing
Remove air cleaner cover and inlet hoses from the engine
Unplug throttle position sensor and idle air control motor connectors.
Pry retainer tab back on throttle cable and slide cable out of bracket. Remove cable from throttle lever.
Slide Speed control cable out of bracket, if equipped. Remove cable from throttle lever.
Remove EGR tube from intake plenum.
Remove plenum support bracket bolt located rearward of EGR tube
Remove bolts holding upper intake plenum and remove plenum
Always remove the ignition cable by grasping at the spark plug boot turning the boot 1/2 turn and pulling straight back in a steady motion
Prior to removing the spark plug spray compressed air around the spark plug hole and the area around the spark plug
Remove the spark plug using a quality spark plug socket with a rubber foam insert
Inspect spark plug condition.
To avoid cross-threading start the plug into the cylinder head by hand
Tighten the spark plugs to 20 ft-lbs (28 N-m)
Install ignition cables over spark plugs
Install new gasket and position upper intake plenum. Tighten blots to 13 ft-lbs (18 N-m)
Install bolts at plenum support brackets (Same torque as above)
Install EGR tube at plenum. Tighten EGR tube to intake manifold plenum screws to 8 ft-lbs (11 N-m)
Install throttle and speed control (if equipped) cables
Attach electrical connectors to sensors.
Install air inlet tube clamp to to 25+/- 5 inch pounds (3 +/- 1 N-m)
Connect negative terminal to auxiliary jumper terminal.
There are some figures that show the parts which might be helpful but I don't have a document scanner. If you want the xerox copy of the pages let me know along with a postal address and I'll mail them to you. Best of luck with the project.
Roland
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QUESTION: Hi Roland,
Got the car running. Check engine light stays on. Codes are 12, 27, 33, 55. Engine runs a little rough. Engine overheats if allowed to run long enough. It seems that the electric fans don’t come on. Any ideas on what I should check? Thanks, George
AnswerHi George,
Om the fans, check fuses 9 and 19 in the power distribution center under hood. Look carefully as either could have a subtle crack in the wire and not appear to be blown, or test them with an ohmmeter.
On the 27, because you haven't seen this code before, I would suspect that it may just be one of the fuel injector electrical plugs is not connected properly, or a wire/disconnect interface for that injector is not making good contact so take a look at all the wiring that goes to the injectors. It would be helpful to know which injector is not working properly, and there is a possibility you can find out which.
I am not certain if the '95 Cirrus is set up with the OBD-II fault code system or not, that was the year when it began on some models. If it does then because the 27 code says that one or more of the 6 injectors is not electrically responding as it should it would be good to get such a readout. If you look under the dash near the steering wheel see if there is a 16-pin plug which would be a way to do a OBD-II readout of the engine controller memory with a plug-in diagnostic readout box that would give you a 4-digit code number to tell you which of the injectors is bad. You can get a free readout at Autozone if you have that type of code system and the necessary plug under the dash.
The 33 code is about the AC compressor circuit which is not relevant to engine performance.
Roland
