QuestionWow, thanks for yout quick response Roland.. "you da man!"
I have some updates since I wrote you the first letter, or plea if you will.
First, let me explain a little better the issue; Randomly (once a month or so, {kind of like a menstral cyle - but less predictable}) I get into the van, turn the key and it fires up, then dies immediately. It will do this 3 times... on the fourth turn of the key I get nothing. Not even a turn over. I must then sit and wait anywhere from 10 to 20 mins, (last time though, it was almost 24 hours) then all of the sudden it fires up and runs like nothing has happened. This makes diagnostics impossible.
Here's the new twist. Yesterday, it shut down on me again. I immediatley called the tow truck and had it hauled to Woodbine Chrysler and they agreed to see me right away. When I got there it was still not running (I was never so happy to have a dead vehicle - especially since it cost $100. to tow it there)
They first tried the boost, but I knew that would fail (been there...) so they pushed it into the garage. What they noticed was; when the key was in the start position, all the lights, horn, radio, etc. were working... but the digital odemetre, trip meter and "P R N D 1 2" lights were NOT lit up. They found this very suspicious... after much pondering and talking amongst themselves, I was informed that they had a similar case with another car - and they replaced his instrument cluster. They say they have not heard back from that guy since. May or may not be the issue, but it sounds like it could be?...
Shivering now, I asked "how much is an instrument cluster?" He said they located a used one for him for about $3-400. + labour, about a $500. CDN repair... if thats the issue. If it is, I will pay it! (he wouldn't even tell me what a new one would cost - and I don't think I want to know)
Eventually, like always... it fired up, then they couldn't do anything because it was running fine.
They want the van back for a few days next week to see if they can recreate the problem. I am going to try and give up my wheels for that long, but that won't be easy, its my only vehicle and they don't have a courtesy car.
Tonight I am going to visit a friend of mine who has a garage and access to the program "Shop Key" and see if there are any bulletins about this problem... if there are, I will keep you informed.
I hope all this can help anyone who is having similar issues...
Once again, thanks Roland, for your time.
Bruce
-------------------------
Followup To
Question -
I have a 1999 Town and Country Limited - all bells and whistles... My issue is not unlike some other posts I have read, but I can't find any solid answers. What happens is, on occasion, it turns over 3 times but will not start, then the alarm (I guess?) locks me out! The first few times, I unhooked the battery cable and let the computer reset - and it started back up in about 10 mins. The last 2 times, it took almost 24 hours before the computer decided to let me start it again. Luckily the last 2 times I have been at home... maybe next time I will not be so lucky. I now carry a tent and sleeping bag with me. There is no point on going to the dealer after I get it started because everything "seems" to be fine? I paid them a hundred bucks to put it on diagnostic and all they ended doing, was to spray some anti-corrosion goo on my battery terminals... guess what?... didn't help!
Totally annoyed! can you help?
Answer -
Hi Bruce,
When you say it "turns over 3 times but will not start, then the alarm (I guess?) locks me out" do you mean that after three attempts to start the car the starter refuses to crank the engine, or that it will crank the engine but it still won't start, or that the theft alarm indicates it is indeed shutting down the controller so that the engine will not start (but it still cranks the starter)?
I believe that the alarm system doesn't prevent the starter motor from operating, but rather it prevents the engine controller from allowing the fuel, spark, and injectors from operating. Usually I believe that it has some sort of an indication that it is the alarm system that is preventing the start. If I'm wrong then so be it.
But if I am right and this has nothing to do with the alarm system, then you have a conventional no crank after 3 attempts, and not start during the first 3 attempts. It could thus be a combination of a starter system problem and a no start problem. The first thing I would do is have a spare spark plug along so that when it won't start pull an insulator caps off one of the spark plugs (don't pull on the wire) and plug you spare plug into it. Then hold the threaded surface of the plug agains the cylinder head or any other metal part of the engine while a helper (who you recruit to help) tries to start the car. Watch to see if you get a spark to jump regularly across the electrodes of the spark plug. If you do, then you know that the alarm is not keeping you from starting it. If you don't then either the alarm is stopping you, or there is a conventional no start issue that needs further diagnosis/
Write and tell me which engine you have and we'll go from there.
If you don't get cranking after 3 attempts, then either the ignition switch, the starter relay, the park/safety switch, or the wiring between these parts is compromised. I would look inside the power distribution center (a rectangular box near the battery) under the hood if this is the case so as identify the starter relay and then to listen to see if it clicks softley when you try the ignition switch (have a helper crank it). If you do then the starter solenoid or the wiring to it is bad, or if the starter solenoid also clicks then the starter motor itself is bad (unless the battery cable wire to the solenoid is loose or not making good contact at the solenoid). If you don't get a click from the starter relay then the ignition switch, the safety switch, or the relay is bad. You will need a voltmeter to sort that out. Let me know if that is the case.
So let me know what is really going on here.
Roland
AnswerHi Bruce,
I got another questioner with the same problem. Is yours resolved, and if so what was the solution?
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Roland
Hi Bruce,
Interestingly an owner of an 98 Dodge Caravan wrote with virtually the same history as you have had. I wonder if you had any success dealing with the problems in the past week?
The new questioner is going to try some of the same things.
Roland
Hi Bruce,
I'm a bit limited in that the Haynes manual doesn't show all of the electrical circuit, but I believe the dealer is "all wet" with their theory of a new instrument cluster. What they observed is an effect not a cause of your problem and I think you will be throwing away money on that idea.
To operate the cluster you have to have two separate voltage supplies, one provided by the ignition switch in position "off, run or start" (but not accessory I presume) that sends voltage thru a 10A fuse in position #2 of the junction (fuse) block that is under the dash, and another dedicated voltage (hot at all times) via 10A fuse in position #10 in the power distribution center which is a long narrow box under the hood between the battery and the engine control module.
So I would suggest that you look closely at those two fuses to verify that neither of them has a fatigued/cracked conductor wire inside which would give you an intermittant voltage supply and thus the intermittant no run/no start problem that you are having. You might want to just replace them in case the problem is hidden; fuses are cheap.
It seems to me that you have a basic problem with getting power to the various circuits that are needed to both start the starter motor and to operate the engine control system. If it isn't the fuses being flakey, then I believe that you will find that the problem is inside the ignition switch located on the left side of the steering column. It has four different "sections" that connect various circuits to different voltage/ground sources in ways which vary depending upon the position of the key lock cylinder. Bad connections in any of those sections could be the cause of your problem. To test that theory you would want to have a voltmeter at the ready when the car refuses to run and take the covers off the steering column so you could check the presence or absence of voltage on the wires connected to the circuits that are provided by the different sections of the switch. But for sure check out whether or not the starter relay in the distribution box clicks or doesn't click when the starter motor refuses to respond to the ignition key, which would be diagnostic of a bad ignition switch, park/neutral safety switch (move it one way or other off the detent setting to test if it might be mal-adjusted), or a flakey starter relay proper, as I mentionned in my first response.
Let me know if any of these ideas prove out. I think you will do better spending the time on this yourself rather than giving up the vehicle why the dealer fools with it.
Roland
