QuestionQUESTION: Hello, I have read your previous records of Packard Overheating (mainly the one about the 1950 Packard) and it sounds like I found the right person.
The Car is a 1953 Packard Clipper Deluxe Sedan with 327 Straight 8, Ultramatic drive that has overheated since the beginning of this project for about 4 years. The history of the car was the typical ran when parked story (10 yrs ago) by a car collector that had too many other projects. After cleaning up after the old liquids and sediment I have replaced/ rebuilt the water pump, radiator, carburator, gas tank, fuel pump, distributer, generator, heater core, transmission cooler,exhaust manifold, exhaust muffler and tube, water tube and rewired the car (6 volt, spark plugs, ignition wires and coil...
After all that work and adjustments I made over the years the car still overheated. (Mainly hevay discharge of antifreeze/water and steam outside the radiator relief tube).Other than the overheating I didn't very much power in the car, about 25 miles was the max for standard roads. For a long straight away I could make it to 65 mph after 3 minutes of gas. I understand it is no hotrod but it was very weak, couldn't climb a small hill past 5mph to get on the highway. The car would go a distance 15 to 25 miles till overheat. I then ran a compression test and it was my biggest fear, some cylinders had no compression, some were mismatched,,,,,,,the engine needed rebuilding.
I then disassembled the engine, except for the valves that I left for the machine shop. The piston rings were all broken and pistons had melted contusions in them. I really couldn't believe the engine worked at all and the block did not have any major damage. The shop resurfaced the head,crankshaft,camshaft,valve work,cleaned the block,rebored the cylinders, and rebuilt the oil pump. I rebuilt the engine with the new rebuild parts new timing chain, bearings, gears, gaskets, covers, etc. Got the engine back in, adjusted the car, and have been working with the engine since.
The Packard still overheats through the radiator overflow, in about ten minutes either idling or driving. Goes about 10-15 miles max. That's Max. No straight away, nothing, that's Max. I could floor the gas pedal or barely push it and I will go the same speed, can't make it into high gear. The engine does increase roatation speed and responds to more gas but it is almost as if the power is not being applied to the car, it is being stolen. I have adjusted the timing, carb adjustments, manifold exhaust plate, tried 160 degree thermostat and no thermostat, changed oil, changed antifreeze/water combo....NOTHING HAS WORKED.
My thought is that their is a water circulating problem. You can see the water ciruclating in the radiator without the cap but with cap after 6 minutes the coolant is basically just boiling inside the engine, it is hot. My friends say that i could be that the timing gears and chain are not on, that they are a tooh off, but I am 99% sure it is on correctly. I took extra time and measurments to ensure that phase of the rebuild was correct, I knew the problems I could face if I messed up. The 1% of doubt is the consideration that it could be the problem.
I took some measurments with a laser thermometer: At overheat the radiator is 207 F on the top and 190 F at the bottom. I took back in the radiator to the shop for a flow test and it passed. The block is about 220 F on the head. On each of the exhaust manifold inlets coming straight out of the block the temps are #1 cylinder-450F #2- 350F #3-530F #4- 600f #5- 420F #6-480F #7-530F #8- 650F.
I have also ran a compression test on the new engine and the numbers are as follows:: #1- 90psi #2- 100psi #3- 80psi #4-80 psi #5-90 psi #6-90 psi #7-90 psi #8-95 psi.
Let me know what you think or what other info you need. My background for working on cars isn't the greatest so I will take any ideas. This is the first car I ever owned, before this car I had no automotive experience, I am only 19, sit all day for at a Graphic Artist Job. I just work on the car as I go and make up what I don't know. My car club buddies rarely help since it is not a ford, or chevy, etc. But since I've came this far the Packard way is all I know. I HATE this car so much that I can't stop loving it, but I'm losing motivation for it fast. Please help.
Ryan
ANSWER: Your engine is in serious trouble, since these cars when new had more than adequate power and should take you down the road at 65-70 MPH all day long without overheating, and will accelerate as well or better than any other car of the era.
There are two items you may have missed. You may be using a different name for the first item - but what I call the water distribution tube is critical to good engine cooling system performance, and after reading the things you found when the engine was taken apart, I suspect it is not installed, or is corroded beyond use. You mention replacing the "water tube" - if by this you are referring to the engine length brass tube that slips into the front of the block behind the water pump, and you have already replaced this with one that is in known good condition, then we'll move on to the second item:
The core plugs on the side of the engine should have been removed and then the engine water passages should have been pressure washed and probed with a sharp tool (like a hacksaw blade) to remove the 50+ years accumulation of mud and debris that is no doubt piled up between the cylinders, preventing circulation of coolant in the lower parts of the block. You can do this yourself - it is a dirty, time consuming job, but very rewarding because you will find pounds of debris and mud in there. You have to remove the large (1 1/2 inch) round plugs from the driver's side of the block - your engine has either 3 or 5 of these, starting right behind the starter (which you have to remove) and continuing toward the front of the engine at the same level. There is a block drain plug near the oil dipstick which you remove to drain the coolant out of the block - if the water jackets have not been cleaned out, when you open this plug, you will probably have to poke in the hole with a sharp small screwdriver to start the coolant draining, if these passages have not been cleaned out.
During the engine rebuilding process, this should have been done by the mechanic - but if that step was skipped, your overheating problems are not going away until it is done.
If both of these things have already been done, then I too suspect the valve timing is way off - that would explain both the overheating and the poor performance.
If you installed the timing chain yourself, did you follow the instructions in the shop manual about lining up the indicator marks on the two pulleys?
Your compression reading are acceptable - the engine should perform quite well - your rings and valves are in decent condition, although I would expect to see better readings in a freshly rebuilt engine.
I can't tell from your message which valve lifter system you have - I need the engine number from the side of your block, just below the head gasket, on a machined pad there should be a series of letters and numbers stamped - if your car has the original engine, the engine number should start with L4, followed by 5 more digits, and possibly followed by a letter after that. If you post a follow up message to me with that number, I can tell you what your engine is supposed to have in the way of valve lifters. The reason I raise this question is that if the valve clearances are not set correctly, the engine could be overheating for that reason.
Regarding the transmission, when you take off from rest, the engine should rev up normally, but the initial acceleration will not be like a modern car, but rather 'slow but steady', and very smooth - but it should make a definite "shift" to direct drive at 25 to 40 MPH, (depending on how hard you are pressing on the gas). This is a shift that you should definitely feel - if you are not feeling that shift, your transmission has a burned out direct drive clutch, or possibly some problems in the control valve assembly or governor.
If the shift to direct drive is working properly, the car should feel the same as a manual shift car when you change the accelerator setting - in other words, when you back off the gas, the engine doesn't slow down, except as the car's speed decreases (no "free wheeling" or coasting sensation) and when you press back on the gas, the engine does not speed up immediately, but only as the car speed increases, and in direct proportion.
When you fill the radiator, since you don't have a coolant recovery tank on this car, be sure that you are only filling it to about 2 inches below the radiator cap sealing ring. Coolant expands with heat, and if you don't make room for it above the liquid level when the liquid is cold, it HAS to come out the overflow tube when it gets hot. Also, make sure your radiator cap is in good condition, and the right one for the car. These long reach caps are getting VERY hard to find - if you don't have an R6 cap on there, that is a big part of your coolant burping out problem.
You should be running a 180 degree thermostat. I see no mention of the thermostat - if you don't have one installed, get one from Kanter Brothers (they will have the right cap also) - ask for Stuart Blond and tell him I sent you! Running without a thermostat will cause the back sections of the engine to be starved for coolant, which causes localized boiling such as what you seem to be having.
You've got some answers for me about this, so I'll wait until I hear back from you before wearing out my aged fingers any more!
These cars make excellent drivers when everything is right - comfortable, decent gas mileage, adequate performance, quiet and roomy - let's get this poor thing straightened out!
Dick
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: It's hard to get a hold of you, the program keeps saying your busy about all the time.
Got some new info for you, thanks for replying so fast.
First thing first- the water distribution tube - This has been replaced with one that is in great condition.
Next on the list is the Core Plugs you mentioned- those were replaced with new plugs and the debris has been sawed,cut,and scrapped out.I remember this vividly since this was done by myself at the machine shop.(They let me go in and do the grunt work to save me money).
The timing chain was installed by me as well, I did follow the shop manual and took extra time and precision to ensure that these were perfectly aligned. The gears and the chain were also new. This weekend I am going to take the timing cover off and double check the chain and gears.
For the valve lifter system the number on the side of the block, from what it looks like, it is hard to read is
L3 12193. You mentioned is being L4 but I'm pretty sure mine says L3. Let me know more on that please.
The Transmission does engage when shifting, I do not think the direct drive has burned out but I do not have any driving power while driving the car, again very slow acceleration and power loss.
For the cooling system, I felt this was my problem because of a hose coming out of the head that gets about 300 degrees but the flow of everything in the cooling sytem checked out, no restrictions. For the radiator cap I have tried a 7 lb, 9 lb, and 13 lb cap, but I will be ordering an R6 cap today to try. I have tried a 160 and a 180 Thermostat and have not noticed a difference in the overheating.
I do have a couple more ideas for you to think about. On the carburator, if I adjust the fuel and vacuum setting to closed, the car should die but I am not noticing the car changing in response to adjusting the carb. I could even still turn the car on with both adjusters closed/ tightened in all the way. Seems odd.
One more reason to suspect the timing is my friend says a good standard for having the engine idling is around 500 rpms. The manual requires a setting at 6 deg. When timing the car a good normal running speed for the engine is not even on the timing pulley. It is about a half inch from the 1 deg. mark in the NO-Zone. Setting the car to 6 deg. the car is almost advanced to MAXIMUM advance, the engine is then idling way to fast. Let me know your ideas that part is very odd.
One other question, and I don't know if this affects power, is about the kickdown from the transmission (not sure what that is called). This connects to the carburator linkage, It seems pretty stiff and under pressure that I'm not sure if it is moving when I engage the carburator linkage with the pedal. I don't even know what the kickdown is for. If that could be causing problems? I never did find it in the manual.
Thank you so myuch for your time.I beleive that you may be the only key my answers and for that I appreciate you help. Look forward to hearing from you.
AnswerCorrection, Mistake, Goof-up, Revision: Glad you haven't read the previous response yet, because I just discovered a stupid error in it. This version is correct, please discard the one I sent out at 4:21 PM PDT.
Sorry that I'm hard to get back to - if you use the "follow-up question" link, you will always get through to me, unless I am on vacation. I've been doing this since 1996, and have done about 5000 of these Q&As, but lately I've been cutting down on the number per day I will accept - I'm an old geezer (late 70s), and doing this for 3 to 5 hours each day, 7 days a week is tiring, and irritates my wife no end! I'll warn you now that we are taking the grandkids to the beach on July 12th for a week, so you won't be able to get to me until the 19th after we leave.
OK, back to your car:
Your situation seems really screwy.
Don't take the timing cover off yet - we may get this fixed without having to bother with that.
From the way your engine is acting, your ignition timing seems to be way off. Let's take baby steps here until I can figure out what is going on. This may or may not do any good, but we have to start somewhere.
Do me a favor and perform these steps:
1. Take the #1 spark plug out of it's hole, and stick a compression gauge, your finger, or a tuft of Kleenex into the the hole, and slowly crank the engine with a big wrench on the bolt that sticks out of the front end of the crankshaft. Turn the engine clockwise, (viewed from the front of the car) until the Kleenex, your finger, or the compression gauge tell you that the #1 piston is coming up on the compression stroke (you can feel the pressure building in the cylinder).
2. Look at the timing pointer - and continue turning the crank a few more degrees (maybe 30 degrees or so) until you come to the first marking. The markings on the crank pulley show "DC No. 1 up" and then the next 15 degrees are marked off, with every 5 degrees marked with the number of degrees BTC (Before Top Dead Center). True dead center (0 degrees) is between the D and the C of DC. To read it you have to look from the rear of the engine. Continue moving it until you get to 6 degrees - this is about another 1/2 inch or so on the pulley edge.
3. Now, using a test light or voltmeter, look at the voltage on the wire terminal on the side of the distributor (turn on the key, of course). If the points are open, you should read battery voltage (-6.5 volts or so, if your battery is installed correctly (positive ground for all Packard up to 1956). If the points are closed, it will be just a few tenths of a volt. Turn off the key now.
4. Note the position of the rotor - which plug wire hole is it pointing at? #1, I hope. Now look at the points to see whether they have just opened (if the voltage check told you they were open), or are still closed, if that is the situation. The rotor turns counter-clockwise when the engine is running.
5. Now, loosen the hold down bolt on the distributor, turn on the key, and rotate the distributor as follows: if the points were closed in step 3, rotate the distributor body clockwise until they just barely open (use the meter to be sure - the voltage will jump up to battery voltage). If they were already open, you'll have to turn the distributor in the counter-clockwise direction until they just close (the voltage drops near zero), then go back the other way until they just barely open. Now lock down the holding bolt so the distributor can't turn anymore.
Now we KNOW your timing is set at 6 degrees BTC.
You can put the #1 plug back in and start the engine. This may be where you had it set, but I wanted to make sure about that. If it doesn't run any better with this setting, I'm thinking that your riming pointer might not be bolted on in the right position. (Otherwise, maybe the problem IS the timing chain setup.) Tell me which pair of bolts on the timing cover you have the pointed bolted to - counting from the top of the timing cover.
Anyway, if you do what I said above, we'll know the distributor is timed right, without using a timing light, (if the pointer is in the right place, and isn't bent up or from some other car).
Your engine # L312193 is the correct one for your car, a 327 with hydraulic lifters. That eliminates the worry about the valves being set too tight. The L4XXXXX would have been OK too, that was used later in the year in some cars.
The temp of 300 degrees is what it feels like, I'm sure, but since that isn't possible, I'll take your word for the fact that it is very hot - and leave it at that. We'll fix it, just stay with me.
The R6 cap is essential for this car - it is only a 4# (or maybe 6# cap). It has a long enough reach to seal the radiator. Your 13 pound cap couldn't have worked right, because it isn't a long reach cap. I don't know about the other ones you tried, but do this: Measure the distance from the top of the lip of the radiator cap seating surface down to the sealing ring (the smaller circle down inside the top of the radiator cap opening). This should be a little over one inch (if it isn't, your radiator has been changed). Now measure the corresponding distance on the caps you have tried - if the distance from the sealing rubber washer on the bottom to the seating surface up inside the top cap isn't longer than the 1 inch measurement, that cap is no good for your car - it won't hold pressure at all, and will cause the car to burp out fluid every time you drive it.
Now let's play with the carburetor:
First, disconnect the transmission kickdown rod from the carburetor linkage - it is held in place by a cotter pin through the crank arm that is bolted to the top of the head, behind the carburetor.
I didn't follow what you said about adjusting the carburetor. There is no "vacuum" adjustment - there are only idle speed and idle mixture adjustments. (I'm not discussing the choke adjustments yet- we can come back to that later if you wish). By the way, I don't know which carburetor you have - is it a 4 bbl or a 2 bbl?
Forget about your kickdown linkage for now - it will only complicate the carburetor setup. However, it should move very easily, and if it doesn't it is either not installed right or something is bent or wrong in the transmission. Just leave it disconnected until we get the engine running right. (But DON'T drive the car with the kickdown disconnected!) To answer your question, the kickdown lever is there to tell the transmission what you are doing with the gas pedal, so it knows whether or not to shift up or down, or engage the direct drive clutch - it is VERY important that it be set up right - but save that for now. The place to look in the shop manual to learn how to do this is on page 26 and 27 in section VII of the manual.
With the engine warmed up and idling slowly, try adjusting the idle mixture screw (the one sticking out of the front of the carburetor, close to the mounting bolts, with the spring around the screw. If the screw is working right, it should be about 2 turns out from all the way in - in fact, before you even start the engine, run the screw in until you feel resistance (Be GENTLE HERE, you don't want to damage the screw). If you have a 4 bbl carburetor, do this with both adjustment screws - they are side by side. Back out each screw about 2 turns.
Now, how does the car idle? Can you adjust the idle speed to normal curb idle using the idle speed screw (the one that moves the stop on the carburetor linkage)?
If the idle doesn't seem right, take off the air cleaner if it is on the carburetor, and with the engine idling, slowly move your hand over the top of the carburetor, so as to block the air flow into the top of the carburetor. If at ANY point, the engine speeds up, you have a vacuum leak, and until that is fixed, nothing else is going to work right.
I'm tired of typing now, so I'll sign off here - use the FOllOW-UP link to get back to me - you won't be blocked out.
Dick
