QuestionMark,
I have a 1986 Yz 80 that will not start. Ive tried everything, even pull starting. Ive replaced thee plug and cleaned out the carb several times and still nothing. It will backfire when i kick it but thats as far as i get.My son has been riding this bike for 3 years and have never had a problem with anything. This is driving me crazy, please help. I can take the plug out and ground to the frame and kick it and the spark is blue and pretty strong. Ive changed the fuel several times and still nothing. Do you have any ideas?
AnswerHi Jack,
I suspect the carbeurtor may need more thoroughly cleaned. Backfiring indicates an ignition problem, though I'm leaning towards a fuel related problm such as varnishing.
Can you describe the appearance of the spark plugs?
I return tech intel files via email. Be sure to include your email address as requested.
Respectfully,
Mark Shively
Sample tech files:
The &!@^%*#! Thing Won't Start!
Oh boy is this irritating... It's definitely frustrating when you can't get your MC started. The first thing to do is a process of elimination:
In order for an engine to start and run, it needs 3 things:
1. Spark at the correct time
2. A proper fuel/air mixture and exhaust flow
3. Sufficient engine compression
Sounds easy, right?
Cylinder Compression Check: If you just acquired the motorcycle, you should first do a full inspection before you try to get it running. Please see this page on restoration. If this is the case, I'd do a compression check first because it's easy. First check the quantity and condition of the engine oil. Add oil as necessary. I wouldn't change it unless it's terribly dirty. The engine could be bad so you'd waste the oil change. Hook up or purchase a good battery. Leave out the spark plug and crank the engine for ~5 seconds. This helps to circulate the oil. Let it set for ~15 seconds and do it again. It's not a good idea to continuously crank the engine because the starter can overheat and wear prematurely. Most motorcycles need a minimum of 100 psi in compression to run start and properly. Compression should be checked when the engine is warm, but that's kind of hard to do if the motorcycle is not running. So just hook up a compression gauge and open up the throttle all the way. Crank the scooter until the needle on the compression gauge stops moving. This should take no more than 5 seconds. Very roughly, 100-120 psi is good, 120-140 psi is very good and 140 + psi is great. If you don't have this level of compression then you have bad valves and/or bad piston rings. If you want, you can add a teaspoon or so of oil to the engine through the spark plug hole. Then try the compression test again. If compression is higher, then it's likely you have bad rings. The oil will seal the rings and give you better compression. If compression is the same, then you have bad valves/seats and/or valve clearances out of service limits. If you get any bad readings, perform a leak-down test to further determine the source of the leak.
Got spark? There are a few ways to check for spark. The easiest way is to remove the spark plug and put it back in the spark plug cap. Then ground it to the engine - you should be able to lay it against a non-painted portion of the engine. Make sure there is good metal-to-metal contact. A darkened area may help to see the arc. You should see a definite spark at the tip of the spark plug. It's hard to see in direct sunlight. If the color of the spark is blue, that means it's a strong spark. A white color is less strong, and a yellow color is weak. Most MC starting systems are a bit weak (compared to cars). Even a yellow spark should start your scooter just fine. Next, the spark must occur at the right time. Just about all scooters made since around 1980 have electronic ignition. These systems rarely can be set. This is good news. After working on maybe 50 MC's, I've never seen one go out of time. Motorcycles with points are another matter. You'll have to follow the timing procedure in the manual to get the timing correct. In general, the spark occurs just before the piston reaches the top of its stroke. There is a slight delay between the spark plug fire and the fuel-air mixture ignition. That's why the spark occurs a little early. Most ignition systems have an advance unit build in, so that as the engine speeds up the time of the spark retards a little bit and helps the engine fire the mixture at the proper time.
Starting Fluid: Assuming sufficient compression, squirt in a bit of starting fluid and see if she'll fire. If so, great! That means that you have sufficient compression and the proper spark. You should get the scooter to run for a second or so on starting fluid. If so there's a good chance you can get it running. One caution here - don't run your engine for long periods on starting fluid because it's hard on the engine.
Fuel/Air Mixture: The last thing is the fuel/air mixture. You could be getting too much or too little of either. If the motorcycle has been sitting for a while, it's likely the gas has evaporated and left a bunch of sludgy deposits. This condition is known as “varnishing.” Ask the seller when it last ran or if its been stored for any periods of time. Varnishing begins to occur in as little as 3-4 weeks. If it's been more than this, you should thoroughly clean out the fuel system and the carburetor. Disconnect the fuel line and drain the old gas. I've been able to burn old gas with no problem by using it in my truck. Add fresh fuel and make sure it flows smoothly through the petcock (on the bottom of the fuel tank). If the petcock is controlled by vacuum, you'll have to draw a vacuum on the vacuum line in order for fuel to flow. The vacuum line will be the smaller line on the petcock. Do you get a good, steady flow of gas? If so good, if not, you will have to remove the petcock and clean it. The gas flow should stop when you release the vacuum. Next, you'll have to remove the carburetor and clean it. There are a low of tiny fuel and air passageways in the carb that must be clean it order for your scooter to run right. Carefully take the carb apart. Visit: www.bikebandit.com to view parts microfiche on-line. The carb has tiny passageways and jets that get gummed up. The motorcycle just will not run correctly if the carb is not completely clean, so take your time. I use a gallon container of carb dip (you can get a gallon at your local auto supply store for ~$10). First remove all rubber and gaskets or they will be damaged. After a ~20 minute soaking I blow out the carb with compressed air. You have to get all the jets and the passageways clean. Be sure the jets are clear, especially the starter jet. Sometimes carb cleaner won't clear out these tiny jets. Use a guitar/piano wire, a strand of copper electrical wire, or a tiny drill bit pin vise. Be sure not to increase the size of the hole in the starter jet or you'll change the tuning. Carefully reassemble everything, checking for cracks in the rubber carb boots and the gaskets. Replace them if they are old and cracked. Be sure and remove all rubber and gasket material first or they could get ruined. Carb spray cleaner also works if you're diligent. (If you have an electric choke, check it to make sure it works. Check the resistance between the wires - you should see around 10 ohms or less. Measure the length of the choke assembly. Remove the choke from the carb and plug the wires into a 12V source for 15 minutes. The choke body should be warm. Measure the length again - it should increase by around 1/8".)
Next, consider whether your exhaust pipe is clogged. This is especially a problem with two stroke motorcycles. The unburned fuel/oil mixture builds up in the exhaust pipe along with carbon over time. If the exhaust pipe is clogged, your motorcycle will run terribly or not at all. It can be difficult to tell if the exhaust pipe is clogged. The easiest way to tell is to remove it and try to start the engine. Do not allow the engine to run but a few seconds after starting. It will be a bit loud - two strokes will sound like a chain saw. If it runs, you know were the problem lies.
How Was The Old Gas? Did the gasoline smell old? If the motorcycle has been sitting over a year or so, the gasoline will turn into a varnish-like stuff. Then you'll have some serious cleaning to do. The gasoline will have evaporated for the most part, leaving a sludgy, molasses like substance in the gas tank, petcock, fuel lines, and the carb. All of these parts will have to be cleaned. This is especially a problem in the carburetor. Thoroughly flush out the gas tank and gas lines with new gas. I've had good luck using the old gas (in small quantities at a time) in my truck. If the gas tank is not too rusted or dirty, you might be able to get away with just flushing it out. Pour in some fresh gas. Remove the lines from the petcock to the carb. Place a suitable container under the fuel line and draw air on the vacuum line to the petcock (if so equipped) and see how well the gas flows. The flow has to be more than a trickle. It should be steady and fairly substantial. If you get this flow, then you're ok. Run at least a pint of gas through to help flush the system. If you don't get a flow then it's likely your petcock is clogged. You have to remove it to disassemble and clean it. Carefully reinstall it on the gas tank or you could get a gas leak. Reassemble everything and try to start the scooter. It will take several seconds of cranking to get the gas to work its way from the gas tank to the carb. Hopefully it will start now! :>) I recommend “Sea Foam” as a fuel stabilizer.
The Big Test: Install a new spark plug, especially if the engine is a two stoke. Clean or replace the air filter as necessary. The carb, air cleaner, and exhaust pipe are all carefully tuned to work together. Most motorcycles absolutely WILL NOT run correctly if any of this stuff is changed in a haphazard manner!
Double check all connections, then crank for 10-15 seconds. Did it start? Do you hear any popping, like the engine is trying to run? Most scooters will not start if you apply throttle while cranking. Honda scooters tend to start easier if you apply throttle just as the engine catches. Some motorcycles will not accept any throttle at all until they warm up a bit. If the starter catches, but doesn't start, let it rest ~15 seconds before trying again.
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Engine Doesn't Start, Starting Difficulty:
Starter motor not rotating:
Starter lockout or neutral switch trouble
Starter motor trouble
Battery voltage low
Relays not contacting or operating
Starter button not contacting
Wiring open or shorted
Ignition switch trouble
Engine stop switch trouble
Fuse blown
Starter motor rotating but engine doesn't turn over:
Starter clutch trouble
Engine won't turn over:
Valve seizure
Cylinder, piston seizure
Connecting rod small end seizure
Connecting rod big end seizure
Transmission gear or bearing seizure
Camshaft seizure
Balancer bearing seizure
No fuel flow:
Fuel tap vacuum hose clogged
Fuel tank air vent obstructed
Fuel tap clogged
Fuel line clogged
Float valve clogged
Engine flooded:
Fuel level in carburetor float bowl too high
Float valve worn or stuck open
Starting technique faulty
(When flooded, crank the engine with the throttle fully open to allow more air to reach the engine)
No spark; spark weak:
Battery voltage low
Spark plug dirty, broken, or maladjusted
Spark plug cap or high tension wiring trouble
Spark plug cap not in good contact
Spark plug incorrect
IC ignitor trouble
Neutral, starter lockout, or side stand switch trouble
Pickup coil trouble
Ignition coil trouble
Ignition or engine stop switch shorted
Wiring shorted or open
Fuse blown
Compression low:
Spark plug loose
Cylinder head not sufficiently tightened down
Cylinder, piston worn
Piston ring bad (worn, weak, broken, or sticking)
Piston ring/land clearance excessive
Cylinder head gasket damaged
Cylinder head warped
Valve spring broken or weak
Valve not seating properly (valve bent, worn, or carbon accumulation on the seating surface)
Hydraulic lash adjuster damaged (worn, seizure, or spring broken)
Hydraulic lash adjuster oil passage clogged
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Carb Cleaning 101
By M. Shively
The elements of internal combustion engines are: correct fuel/air ratio, spark at right time, adequate cylinder compression.
There are many passageways and openings to check and clean. All are important in function and when obstructed or not working properly, have subtle to radical effects on engine performance. Vacuum leaks and carburetor synchronization also have effects on performance and should be inspected and adjusted following the below procedures.
Carb Cleaning 101
Warning: Remove all rubber parts before you begin. These parts usually include vacuum diaphragms, needle valves, o'rings, hoses, and other parts. Spray cleaners will damage these parts. Do not disassemble individual carbs from the carb bracket.
Air & Fuel Passageways: Trace and learn individual fuel and air circuits from beginning to end. Machines can only drill straight through the cast passageways. To change direction, another angled passageway must be drilled. The union is plugged with a brass or bronze bead. Inspect and clean each passageway with spray cleaner, brushes/pipe cleaners/etc, and compressed air. Remove any discoloration and debris. Look for spray cleaner to exit from one or more passageways.
Jet Cleaning: Inspect jets by holding to light and look through them. You should see an unobstructed round hole. Clean the jets with one or more of the following: jet cleaning wires, soak solutions, carb spray cleaners and compressed air. Re-inspect jets after cleaning and install when clear of obstructions. Some main jets have paper-like gaskets. Most have metal spacers between the jet and the emulsion tube. Some screw directly into a brass emulsion tube which is machined for a 7mm wrench at its float chamber exposed base.
Inlet Fuel Valve: Inspect the needle valve & spring. Press down the tiny metal rod that protrudes from the butt or float end of the needle valve. The spring should move freely and return the rod to its location. Check the needle valve's seat area for a groove or other wear. It should appear highly polished. Some needle valve seats are rubber and wear may not be visible. Inspect the needle valve jet seat. You can clean the jet seat with Q-tips and semi-chrome polish if necessary.
Carb Body Castings: Blow air through the atmospheric vent holes located on the dome of each float bowl chamber. Air should exit via hoses or brass nipples. Inspect the emulsion tubes and passageways (cast towers that jets thread into) for discoloration and debris. Clean interior emulsion towers with a soft bristle gun cleaning brush. Clean each Venturi (main carb bore).
Needle Jets & Jet Needles: Clean the needle jets, jet needles, and passageway or tower that needle jet screws into. Clean the emulsion tube (pipe between needle jet and main jet) (Main Jet may screw into emulsion tube). Jet needles are part of the throttle slides. See below…
Throttle Slides: There are several types of throttle slides: Mechanical linkage, vacuum, diaphragm, and cable. Disassembling the jet needle from the slide is not always required for cleaning. If you have vacuum piston type throttle slides (large diameter solid metal slide), avoid cleaning the lubrication from sides and caps. If piston type check cap vents and passageways with air. Clean if necessary and re-lube. If you have rubber vacuum throttle diaphragms, inspect for dry-rot, defects, and tears by gently stretching rubber away from center. Do this until all areas around diaphragm have been inspected. Replace any defective part as described above. Clean carb body areas around diaphragm including air passageways and air jets. Diaphragms have a locator loop or tab fabricated into their sealing edge. Observe this locator upon reassembly. Avoid pinching the diaphragm when reinstalling caps.
Fuel Screws: Fuel screws have sharp tapered ends. Carefully turn one fuel screw in while counting the turns until it seats lightly. Warning: These screws are very easily damaged if over tightened into their seats. Record amount of "turns-in" and remove the fuel screw, spring, washer, and o'ring. The fuel screw is part of the enrichment (choke) circuit...clean passageways as described above. When carbs are assembled, spray low PSI compressed air into diaphragm air vents located at intake side of carbs. Throttle slides should rise, then fall when air is removed. Lightly lube external moving linkages. Reinstall carbs and follow through with carburetor synchronization.
Throttle Cables: Lubricate cables periodically. If cables are disconnected from carbs or removed for replacement, etc . . . remember cable routing and ensure proper reinstallation routing. Avoid bread-tying, sharp bends, and pinching cables. Adjust cables so throttle grip has about 5mm of play or throttle slides or butterfly valves may not open completely (full throttle)(wide full open).
Float Bowls: Inspect float bowls for sediment, gum or varnish, crystallization, and defects. Clean all pipes, tubes, passageways, and embedded jets with cleaners and compressed air. Remove and clean the drain screw and area. Inspect bowl gasket and replace if necessary. Clean and inspect overflow pipes and tubes, look for vertical cracks.
Floats: There are several types of float materials: plastic, brass, black composite, tin, and others. Handle floats carefully. Avoid bending, twisting, denting, or other means of mishandling. Most floats are adjustable by bending a small metal tab near the float axle end. Do not change the float adjuster tab unless tuning fuel service levels. Clean metal floats by soaking or by spraying cleaner and wiping clean. Other material type floats may require replacement if cleaning is necessary. Inspect the needle valve (float valve) and seat. Check needle valve's spring loaded pin. It should depress and return smoothly and without resistance. Check the needle valve's tip for a worn groove. Replace needle valve and seat if either symptom exists. These parts wear together and must be replaced as a set.
Synchronization: This is a fine adjustment performed usually and preferably with the carbs installed and the engine running. The unusual part is performed with gauged wire with the carbs on the work bench. Carburetor synchronizing balances Venturi vacuum at the exhaust side of each carburetor, resulting with smooth idling and optimized performance at all throttle openings. Synchronization is checked using a set of gauges which are either air vacuum type or liquid mercury type. The gauges are connected to vacuum ports on the intake manifolds via nipple tubes or if sealed with screws, sync gauge adapters will be needed. With the engine running at temperature, and with a fan or means of forced convection aimed onto the engine, the carbs fuel screws and idle are adjusted, then the synchronization is adjusted via adjustment screws on the carbs. A reserve fuel tank is recommended for convenience of accessing carbs during this procedure. See gauge instructions and repair manuals for detailed use of synchronization gauges.
Notes: While carbs are apart, record the jet sizes. Look for a very small number imprinted on the body of the jets. Verify that numbers are the same for all jets on models with in-line cylinders. A few transverse-4 models and V-engines, the inner and outer carbs use some different size jets and it's important to not mix them up. If you have dial or veneer calipers, measure and record float heights. Perform measurements with floats just touching needle valves, though not depressing the needle valve rods. Replace fuel and vacuum hoses. Be sure to use fuel rated hose for fuel. Install or replace in-line fuel filters. It's a good time to remove and clean interior petcock fuel filters. Inspect carb manifolds for dry-rotting, inspect all clamps and air ducts. Inspect, clean, lube, and/or replace air filter(s).
