Triumph Repair: engine wont crank, starter solenoid, fan blade

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HI
i have a 1976 spitfire the alternator was bad battery kept going dead and when i took off the battery cable the car would die. easy right replace the alternator...i did now the engine seems like its frozen...ran great prior... tried a new starter with the same results any idea what could have happened? i'm at a loss
Answer -
Mike,

Did you replace the battery when you put in the new alternator?

Can you spin the engine at all by hand?  Or by putting the car in 4th gear and trying to roll it?

If you can spin the engine by hand, what is it doing when you try to start it?  Absolutely nothing?  Slow crank?

If you're on the "old" battery that'd be the first place to check.  Also make sure the battery connections are CLEAN, and also the wiring from the alternator back into the harness.

Let me know what you find and we'll see if we can figure this one out.


Cheers,

Jim
tried to jump it but didnt cange the battery battery connections are clean
and how do i try to spin it by hand? i took out the plugs but it didnt seem to turn freely and right not she just clicks ...started engages fan blade turns an inch or so

thanks mike
Answer -
Mike,

Couple of further ideas.

First off, if the battery has been drained, even with a jump start it might not be enough to crank the engine.  It'd be best to pull the battery and charge it properly... or if the battery is recently new take it back to the store for a test/replace.

Did you try checking if it's the starter solenoid?  The simple test is to short across to two main terminals (trans in neutral) with something like a screwdriver.  The screwdriver can get HOT and don't touch the metal to anything grounded like the car body when you try.  If the motor cranks then it's the solenoid (or connections there need cleaning).

Another possibility is that the starter is jamming in the flywheel.  Or that when the old starter was removed a bolt fell into the bell housing.

Finally, you can usually crank the engine by hand by grabbing the alternator belt and pulling.  If there's resistance, you can put a wrench (ratchet) on the shaft bolt of the alternator.  If the engine takes more than that to  spin you've got worse problems inside the engine.  

Unless it's a race engine running 14:1 compression.


cheers,

Jim

OK Jim
Then i guess i have worse problems..with all the plugs out the engine is very hard to turn by hand . Only thing i dont understand is that the car was running turned it off and the next day the engine is frozen. Anything that you can think of that might have caused this

         Thanks
         Mike
Answer -
Mike,

Typical causes for an engine seize are either the pistons get stock in the cylinder bores or a foreign object (or maybe even a domestic object) wedging against the crank or flywheel.   

You can get the cylinders to seize if the engine is allowed to sit with water in the cylinders (typical from blown head gasket).  It normally would take more than one day to happen though.

Otherwise I'd look for something dropped into the bell housing that's jamming against the fly wheel.

It's quite an coincidence that it'd happen the same time as an alternator failure, but I don't rule anything out when it comes to old British cars.


Cheers,

Jim

Hi Jim
with the plugs out i put some oil in each of the cylinders and worked it by hand .Got the engine to roll .with the starter in place it turns but slowly ,not enough to start. Should i try a little more oil and work it by hand? or is pulling the engine  inevitable. battery is new . fully charged.if you have any more ideas  would love to try before i pull the motor
         thanks
         Mike
Answer -
Mike,

With the plugs out, when you spin the engine by hand is it "smooth" or are there definite points of resistance?

Have you tried spinning the engine backwards (by hand ONLY!)?  

Can you write down the exact sequence of things you've done?  Day 1, car won't start, Day 2, new alternator, etc?

If you try to start the engine and the supply voltage to the starter motor is low eventually the starter will burn out.  Usually the engine should spin over relatively easy, unless something is jamming it.  I've pulled apart engines with a starter bolt (or similar) wedged behind the flywheel.

A simple test for an electrical problem is to have a friend try to start the engine while you measure the voltage ACROSS each connection.  From the center of the battery terminal to the battery terminal connnector.  From the post on the starter solenoid to the cable.  If any of those readings are more than a fraction of a volt then you have dirty connections or bad cables.


Cheers,

Jim
jim
heres what happened
engie running good battery going dead..jump start the car  runs fine but when i take off the battery cable the engine stalls...alternator right? ok replaced the alternator and her engine doesnt start...figure maybe the starter so i change that next.still the engine whont turn so now i put a wrench on the engine and i cant turn it by hand.. next i remove the plugs and spray wd40 in the cylinders and work the engine by hand and was able to turn it with a 2 foot wrench.with the starter back in and plugs out engine rolls...slowly..one plug in the engine bearly turns with all the plugs in she will turn once then stop...im guessing something happened on the lower half of the motor....the only thing i can think of that might have happened was i was getting preignition before it stopped..and right before i did top off the oil so thats the whole story


         thanks
         mike

Answer -
Mike,

Coincidences do happen... but I don't like them.  To have the bottom end freeze up like that?  Hmmmmm.

After you replaced the alternator would the starter crank the engine at all?  Or just a click from the solenoid and no action?

A thought for the future... if the car won't crank but will run with a jump start then the alternator is working..  but the battery isn't holding a charge.  Having it die when you disconnect the battery cable is a way to kill the alternator and the engine won't necessarily keep running.  The old generators would sometimes be able to keep enough charge in the system to keep the car running for a few minutes.. but the alternators work differently.

Couple of last thoughts/ideas.  Before you pull the whole engine, try pulling the trans out first.  If you do need to pull the engine it'll be easier to manuever without the trans anyway... and I suspect you'll find a bolt down between the flywheel and the engine back plate.

It is possible that while you were fighting electrical gremlins something happened like the thrust washers finally decided to drop (they do that when they're worn down) and the crank is hitting the block.  I hope not.. but it is possible.

Let me know what you finally figure out, this one has been quite a puzzler.


Cheers,

Jim
JIm
here is something else to confuse me ,you and everyone else out there.
after letting some oil out of the engine working by hand fr what seemed like weeks i got it to roll more and more and today the car turned fast enought to actually start ..after it started .it was free and now starts like it was new... so now im totally confused..when my neighbor heard it running he asked what was  wrong . i still dont know...
the oil pressure is 40 psi dont know if thats normal.. but anyway shes running again

         Mike

Answer
Mike,

You had to let oil out of the engine?  How high was it?

One possible explanation is that something was jammed... either in a bearing or in the oil pump that was causing it to jam/bind up.  

40 PSI on a Spitfire isn't terminal... actually isn't that bad on a 1500.  I'm guessing that's up to temp at a normal cruising speed?  

Cheers,

Jim