QuestionQUESTION: Hi I've bought Chrysler Neon 1796 cm3, 85kW, produced in 1998. VIN: 1C3ESN7A6WD520611 I've driven it by about 2 months. Suddenly, from one day to another, my pilot stopped working because I couldn't open the central lock using it. I've open the car by key, but I couldn't start the car because the pilot block signal on the motion shaft and the starter (it's smart key immobilizer module system). I've went to Authorized Chrysler service in my country and after two days, they diagnose the problem that it's fault of my pilot module and computer module. They say that they somehow unlock the starter (at least they claim that), but when they tried to start the engine by rotating the shaft, and the sensor on the shaft produce some signal which they measure by oscilloscope at the end of the plug to car computer, computer doesn't give any signal to starter. Hence they claim that's this is fault of the computer and it's need to be changed, however all other functions of it works properly. I thought that maybe this car pilot send also some special signal to computer (by infrared) which protect the car to be stolen and blocks the outcoming signal from computer to starter. Is it possible that, changing and programming of new pilot will help, and I don't need to buy new computer, or for sure it's fault of the computer that doesn't react on the signal from the shaft? Or maybe they didn't really unlock the starter? How can I check that? Can I get any electrical schemes of this car? Regards, Slawek
ANSWER: Hi Stawek,
I have a '97 and an '01 manual for the Neon so I need to know which might apply to your '98 model. What is the shape of the power distribution (electrical) box in the engine compartment? Is it wide from side to side and narrow front to back? OR is it approximately square with an indentation at the front outside the corner? That answer may help me give you advice by knowing which wiring diagrams to use.
About the anti-theft system and the Sentry Key Immobilizer System:
Neither will prevent the starter motor from operating. The system works by means of a signal from the remote door lock module or a signal from the SKIS module to the engine computer that says it is OK on not OK to allow the engine to run for more than 2 or 3 seconds.
So if the starter motor won't work, or it will but the engine will not 'catch' and run at all, then it is not related to either of those two security modules but rather to something else related to the starter circuit or the engine circuits.
Have you tried to find if there are any fault codes stored in the computer? Use either a code reader plugged in under the dash next to the steering wheel, or try the ignition key: turn it "on-off-on-off-on and leave on" doing that in 5 seconds or less elapsed time. Then watch the "check engine" light which remains 'on' to see it begin to flash, pause, flash, pause, etc. Count the number of flashes before each pause. Then repeat to be sure you have an accurate set of flash counts. The tell me the counts in the order of appearance. This may not happen with your '98 model, but it does work on the U.S. '97 model which may be similar to your Europeans '98.
I will await your answers.
I am sorry for the delay, but I just found your question in the "pool".
Roland
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QUESTION: Hello,
Firstly I would like to thank you for answer. I will try to give you as much information as
I can get by my own. The electrician from Chrysler service said that computer gives some
error code connected to the fact that it cannot see the signal from the shaft which is going
to computer (it isn't visible for him), however the mechanic doesn't want to give me a
particular error code. He claim that pilot module is broken and probably it has damaged the computer.
I will try to give you some answers:
1) about the shape of power distribution (electrical) box:
if you had on your mind fuse box connected to battery, then it's:
it's wide from side to side and narrow from side to side and narrow from front to back (I can send you the picture if you want)
(It has insight place for eight block black cubes (but only 7 are present), and some slim color plates with some numbers on it)
2) about the anti-theft system and the Sentry Key Immobilizer System
The pilot module has been locked, and even when they pass it over (the Immobilizer system) they
cannot run the engine
Besides that they've check all circuit, and said that they seems to be ok.
3) There is some code about not visible signal from the shaft, but i don't know what
it's exactly, maybe I will buy this diagnostic device which I can buy from a internet
to check it by my own, eg. http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/northern-auto-parts-648/issue-88-16334/page-118.h
from some parts catalog
4)about ignition key:
I have been conducting on-off sequence from the 0 position (electricity off) to 1 position (electricity on) on the ignition switch
and the engine service control light is flashing but only three times, always 4th time of an off-on sequence is dark (not flashing)
Switching the key from position 1 to starter on position, doesn't give any flash on the engine service control light.
When I'm trying to turn the ignition from the key, nothing happen -> no sounds coming from the engine or the
car - I cannot hear the click from the relay. I know that the power to starter goes from the battery to fuse box and then to the starter
from one side. The secondary source comes from ignition switch when I turn the key.
But probably it's somehow locked by the Sentry Key Immobilizer System or the anti-theft system. Maybe the electrician
didn't really over go this circuit, or the starter motor relay is broken in the power distribution center.
I've found today some strange liquid in the fusion box (looks similar like from battery, red color) I've cleaned it and try to
change the change some fuses from starter with some other one (with the same intensity current value) but this operation didn't help.
What about SKREM (Sentry Key Remote Entry Module) and WCM (Wireless Control Module) modules, how can I check them?
Can i unlock the immobilizer by getting the PIN code by using some software like ICC Dongle Tool, working based on dump of EEPROM from Immo-1, Immo-2.
ICC can calculate Pin Code from VIN, serial number of immobilizer or related electronic module or eeprom dump.
I think my model circuit's is more similar to the version from 97 but, electrician from Chrysler service
said that are some differences.
Thanks for your answer,
Slawek
ANSWER: Hi Slawek,
Thanks for the detailed report.
Again, let me say that the starter motor is NOT prevented from operating by the remote key module, the power door locks, or by the anti-theft system, of the SKIS key. The motor will work if its circuit is good, the battery is good, and the motor is good.
Check fuse #11 (30 amp) in the power box under the hood to be sure it isn't blown or maybe has a small crack in the internal wire. If that is good, then in that same power box go to the starter motor relay which is in the front row at the driver's side end of the row of relays (black boxes). Have a friend try the starter to see if you hear/feel a soft click to come from the relay.
If so then the relay and the key switch circuit and the fuse are all good. Then the possibility is that the brown wire from the relay output (pin #30) to the starter motor's solenoid switch is not connected or the starter solenoid switch on the starter relay is bad (because it should click loudly if OK). It is safe to jump from pin 27 to pin 30 of the relay socket (side-to-side) to test the starter solenoid and the starter motor itself, so try that.
If the relay doesn't click, then the park/neutral safety switch is not good (automatic transmission) or the clutch pedal park/neutral safety switch is not good/out of adjustment or the ground connection from the relay activation coil is not making good contact. If you have the clutch pedal/manual transmission, then check the ground wire at the top left front corner of the engine compartment (on the panel that holds the radiator in place) to be sure it is shiny and tight and trace the wire back to the relay where it connects to the front pin of the relay's socket (remove relay and check that the pin is grounded). Tell me which transmission type you have and I will tell you how to test for the safety switch being bad/out of adjustment possibility.
Let us first get the starter motor to work and then go on from there to see how to get the engine to run.
Do you have a volt-ohm meter?
Roland
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Hi,
Roland I would like now to give some information about error codes. At last I have found how to get those flashing signal on the 'service
engine control light'. When I'm doing the on-off sequence, I've also needed to pres the clutch maximum to the floor, cause I've always need to press
it when turning on the engine. And as I've observed the error codes are: 12 and 55. The light is flashing once than short brake than twice
long brake then five times short brake and five times short brake.
However as i found in the internet: (http://www.allpar.com/fix/80s-codes.html)
12- seems to be information about battery or computer has been recently disconnected
55- end of code sequence information,
hence I suppose that they're not giving anything new to diagnosis of the problem.
About the relay clicking sound. When I switch on the ignition key, I hear some click sound after 5 sec coming from power distribution box,
but I'm not sure, that is coming exactly from the starter relay (there is 7 relays in this box).
Can you tell me where can I find the computer in this car?
I have two car parts catalogs for neon from 2000 (supersedes in November 2001) and 2001 (supersedes in April 2002), first one is more suitable for me comparing by the shapes of PDC (Power Distribution Centre).
However informations which are there showed doesn't give me to much information, there are only simple pictures of most of the parts, but no other
clues or descriptions. More informations about the starter motor and it's circuit, I will give you as soon as I can. I will also try to buy the volt-ohm meter.
I saw that some cables, they're in very poor shape, some are twisted which others, partially without gum protection, ie. the brown one going from the starter motor.
I have manual transmission in my Neon.
Slawek
AnswerHi Slewak,
The powertrain controller is the box on the left side inner fender panel under the hood, positioned midway between the shock tower and the headlamp/radiator support panel. It has two 40-pin plugs on its rear surface. It sits above the battery.
The engine starter relay is in the front row of four relays; it is the closest one to the fender. Put your finger on it when someone tries the start position and you will feel it click if the circuit is good, but it should not be delayed by 5 seconds. If it doesn't click then either fuse 11 is bad, the ignition switch is bad (or the safety switch on the clutch is bad, but that seems to be working based on what you tell me about getting the codes).
That click you hear may be instead coming from the automatic shutdown relay which is the rear row and is next to the closest one to the fender in that rear row. That one clicks "on" when you move the key to "run" position but will then click again to 'off' position after 3 seconds IF the engine doesn't start. That may be what you are hearing, so feel that relay too.
If you want to test the poor-condition brown wire to the starter motor to see if it works, remove the starter relay from its socket, and put a wire between the side-to-side pins of the socket (which may be labelled 27 and 30). When you do that make sure that the transmission is in park or neutral. This will by-pass the ignition switch and allow you to test the wire and starter, but fuse 11 must be good for the starter motor to be energized.
Roland
